Iron filter and softener selection help please?

[Scooterbugg]

We have been reading a lot on here about equipment selection and still have many unanswered questions. We have been looking at Fleck and Kinetico equipment but are open to all, we're just trying to educate ourselves. We have a private well, drilled in 1986 for farm use but the house wasn't built until 2005. The water test from Kinetico in 2005 showed 28 grains hardness, 2 parts iron, ph was 7. Now 11 years later it tested 47 grains of hardness with 3.5 parts iron. After running through the Kinetico 4060s softener w/ a number 4 disk it is down to 18 hardness and 1.5 iron. I have been using iron out to get it to that point, I'm pretty sure the bed is pretty fouled. We just bought the house and the only real changes we know of is that the well pump was replaced and was set 29 feet deeper in the well than the pump was at the original test (71 feet vs 100 feet in 215 foot well). We have a 3 bath house with 2 adults and 1 teenager.

Kinetico recommends their AIO iron filter 10" by 54" with Macrolite and birm w/ Fleck 2510 SXT head and a 935 or S250 softener. Our existing 4060S OD might be able to do most of the work if we install an iron filter then change our disk to a number 8 but they say it would be just out of range to get hardness down to zero. I was even considering rebedding the tanks to get back to optimum efficiency.
My primary concern at this point is why did the water quality change so drastically?...and I want new equipment to be able to handle increased capacity if water deteriorates further.

Questions: 1). I'm reading birm is outdated, I don't know what Macrolite is, and katalox lite is a much better media, so I'm thinking about buying a 10"x 54" iron filter with the same Fleck head online and installing myself ? Or an even bigger filter with the same media/head? Installing myself is not an issue, I have extensive DIY experience and a neighbor who is a retired pipe fitter.

2). I have read upflow softeners are much more efficient in water usage and salt consumption. But if I've learned anything here is that there are no absolutes. I would like to stick to a twin tank setup if possible; my work hours vary a lot and I want full time soft water. I do not mind spending the money up front if it will pay for itself over time in reduced salt usage. So is Kinetico the only option to get upflow and twin tanks? I've had decent luck w/ them in previous houses but all equipment was existing when I purchased the homes. I despise how they lock down most of their information and parts however. I will give them my money if I have to but only if their equipment is the best option in the long run. The number one determining factor for me if they have similar reliability and effectiveness is cost over time....if it uses more salt but takes 15 years to get to the cost of the more efficient unit then the payout is too far ahead.

3). I should probably get my water lab tested before any purchase? I don't want to do this more than once.

4). Why did the water quality change so drastically in 11 years, and is it. Going to keep changing? If so do I need to upsize all equipment for possible future issues?

Thanks in advance for all the expert knowledge on here. My research has already brought to light many issues I had not even considered.

 

[Bannerman]

With a private well, you are responsible for your water safety and treatment so periodic lab testing is a necessity. On-site testing will never be as accurate or as comprehensive as a lab utilizing thousands of dollars in specialized equipment. That said, as you are planning to install, maintain and operate your equipment yourself, a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit is highly recommended which can also verify the hardness output from the softener. Here is a link to a recommended lab test: http://www.ntllabs.com/Merchant2/me...NTL&Product_Code=9003&Category_Code=Homeowner
There are too many variables in water treatment so the only way for anyone to provide knowledgeable advice is to first review the results of the various tests.

With that quantity of iron, an iron filter is a necessity. Katalox Light is the newest media for iron reduction and is highly effective. Often the media alone will be adequate but sometimes an oxidant such as chlorine or hydrogen peroxide is also required.

Once the iron is removed prior to the softener, you may find a few Iron-Out or similar treatments is all that is necessary to restore the softener resin.

As Kinetico offer proprietary equipment and unique media names ('Macrolite'), they are usually not recommended on this site. As you already own some of their equipment, there are posters here who are experienced and can be of assistance.

While up-flow softening can offer some benefits, in practice, the gains are marginal and require much more specialized knowledge to implement. For these reasons, down-flow softening when combined with highly efficient settings, has become the reliable standard.

With your high hardness, a twin tank system is recommended but if you do need to change softeners, Kinetico is not the only option as Fleck also offer twin tank control valves such as the Fleck 9100SXT.

As hardness and iron is caused by dissolved rock and minerals that the water comes into contact with, your water conditions might not further change but periodic testing will provide snapshots as to the specific conditions at the time.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Scooterbugg]

Thank you for your time and expertise, it is much appreciated. Every time I talk to a sales person I get a different answer......I am ordering a lab test and I have decided to install an iron filter then retest for softener effectiveness. I have visible orange staining in my toilets and showers within 2 days of cleaning them, so a my need for an iron filter is not in question, just which one do I need? I still am trying to figure out the difference between a birm AIO filter and one with Katalox. Do Katalox filters need or use the AIO process? Most of the online info I can find for AIO systems use birm for media. But it is confusing because both birm and Katalox systems can be purchased with what appears to be the same control valve. Does Katalox require any brining or other solution for back washing? I've read that water temp and flow rates effect back washing efficiency. We are in Ohio so our water is pretty cold usually, I'm guessing low 50's farenheit. We have a goulds 18gpm pump at 100 feet with a frequency drive so volume is very good.

 

[Reach4]

I doubt your backwash water will be low 50s. I will message you with a thermometer probe that I laid against my backwash inlet pipe, and wrapped with insulation. It records the minimum temperature. I expect the minimum recorded will be pretty close to the backwash temperature. I am farther north than almost all of Ohio, and I got 59F in September. My pump is 120 ft down, I think.

Katalox Light is preferable. That was the easier one. It can get complex to actually predict what is needed, and I am not up on those complexities.

I don't know if AIO is important. If you get KL without AIO, I would get a solution tank for backwash dosing. See jaylivi's post.

 

[Bannerman]

While a filter incorporating Air Injection (AIO) and an air pocket can be effective for Oxidizing iron and manganese prior to filtration, such systems often result in a considerable amount of air throughout the water system.

As previously mentioned, the KL media is often effective on its own but depending on the quantity of iron, other minerals, bacteria, pH and water chemistry, an oxidizer maybe also needed. Chlorine is a common oxidizer as is hydrogen peroxide among others. Any of those including air could be used in conjunction with KL. Often, oxidants can be effective on their own especially when a contact tank is utilized to increase the oxidant's contact time with the water.

Birm is an older media which has been very effective but KL has now been found to be more effective. In addition, KL will support a higher service flow rate than Birm for an equal quantity and as KL has lighter weight, less water will be needed for backwashing.

If the same valve is being used for the AIO system, it is likely incorporating an injector and air-port that is being used to draw air to form an air pocket at the top of the mineral tank. If air injection is not needed, the air inlet could simply be blocked-off.

Cold water is denser than warm so the water temperature will influence the flow rate required to backwash the media. All things being equal, less b-w flow will be needed when the water is colder.

 

[ditttohead]

KL is considered superior to birm in almost every way. They can both use the same valves but the backwash rate for KL is slightly higher than birm. The use of an oxidizer is based on many factors including pH, DO, ORP, etc. KL has a far higher amount of manganese dioxide ore compared to birm allowing it to work in many applications where birm will not. It is also rated for the use of chlorine, hydrogen peroxide etc. It is also effective for the reduction of hydrogen sulfide.
Birm was a great media in the past but has been replaced by KL in many applications. KL is more expensive.

Hope this helps.

 

[Scooterbugg]

Update: We purchased a Hach 5B total hardness kit as Bannerman recommended. We tested 47 grains of hardness before the Kinetico 4060 S OD and 18 grains after. Purchased and installed a 10 x 54 iron filter with Katalox Lite and Flex 2510 SXT AIO valve, $775 shipped from AquaScience. Did the initial backwash and setup routines on the iron filter and ran 2 iron out regenerations ( 1 for each tank) on the softener. After a week and after automatic regens on softener we checked hardness and it now only takes 1 drop of solution to make the solution turn blue which = at or below 1 grain. Checked every day and right before backflush ( set to 20 min/ every 3 days and 20 on brine draw I think) on the iron filter and it was still 1 grain. Water out of the tap tastes much better, maybe even a little salty. Kinetico originally said there was no way our softener would keep up even if we installed an iron filter and changed from our #4 disk to a #8, but we seem to be fine with the original softener and disk. I will keep checking for several weeks but so far so good. I'm thinking about dropping the float in the brine tank a few inches next. The current setting leaves about 10 inches of water above the false bottom if I remember correctly, I will have to check.