Hot Water Boiler and Rad system

Discussion in 'Boiler Forum' started by Btlvr, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Btlvr

    Btlvr New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Location:
    Essex, Md 21221
    Hello all! This is my first post. I've been searching the internet for information to fix my problem and keep finding differing info, or maybe not exactly what I need.

    What I have is a Weil-Mclain gas hot water boiler. I have a 2 pipe system starting with 1 1/4 " pipe that gets reduced to different sizes at the radiators.

    On the first floor I have 2 cast iron rads with 1" pipe, and 2 baseboard copper fin rads with 3/4" pipe. The baseboard rads don't get hot enough to heat the rooms that they are in. These were put in before I bought the house.

    The second floor has 4 cast iron rads, all work fine except the one in my bedroom. We thought that it was the manual valve on it that was seized up so we changed out all the valves for TRV's.

    So, we installed the TRV's, Honeywell, on all the rads except the cast iron one in the room where the thermostat is. I bled air from all the rads and they all seemed to be ok except, again, the baseboard and my bedroom. I know the copper fins won't stay hot as long as the cast iron, that's why I went to TRV's. So they would stay open longer than the cast iron. My bedroom rad barely gets warm, its usually cold all over. The supply and return pipes are hot though, so I thought maybe there was some blockage. I put in some boiler cleaner and let it run a couple hours but that didn't fix it. I tried to bleed it again and did get some air then cold water. I decided to try bleeding the whole system at the boiler. I ran water through all the rads until I didn't see anymore bubbles then started the boiler again. Same problem! I'm getting really frustrated now! :)

    I did some more research and found a post in the HVAC Heating and Cooling forum from 2009 someone mentioned Bell and Gossett's booklet "Zoning guide book". Now, reading through this it mentions that when using non electric valves with TRV's, that you should have the circulator running continuously as long as there is a bypass for the water to run. Then the burner will go on and off as called for by the thermostat. Is this the right way to run it in the winter? How do I get the circulator to run continuously?

    I also found an article about balancing rads. It said that you should either have a TRV valve that has an adjustable balancing cartridge or a lock shield valve on the return pipe. The valves I have are not adjustable and I don't have lock shield valves. Do I need to install these? The Honeywell install direction and diagrams didn't say anything about lock shield valves.

    I would really appreciate any help!!
     
  2. Dana

    Dana In the trades

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Location:
    01609
    Is this a "monoflow tee" system, where the rads are connected to a main loop via tees?

    Pictures and actual model numbers are useful. (You may have no idea just how many W-M gas fired boiler models have been released in the past 40-50 years, many or most of them still in service.)
     
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  4. Btlvr

    Btlvr New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Location:
    Essex, Md 21221
    20190111_203634.jpg 20190111_203653.jpg 20190111_203901.jpg 20190114_101405.jpg 20190114_101413.jpg 20190114_212519.jpg There are no Monoflow tees. The boiler is an HE-4 Series 3 with a Gold GV Boiler Control 1013-200, a White Rodgers Temp Control 11B83-8E1, a Taco Circulator 007-F5.
    On the first floor I have 2 cast iron rads with a 1" V110F1018 Honeywell valve. The rad in the room with the thermostat has a Bluefin RVHW100 valve, the other one has a T104A1040 TRV controller. Then there are 2 baseboard copper fin rads with 3/4" V2040DSL20 valves and T100B1035 controllers.
    The second floor has 4 cast iron rads. 2 of them have 3/4" V110F1010 valves with T104B1038 controllers (these chatter). The other 2 have 3/4" V110F1010 with T104A1040 controllers.
    Here are some pics!
     
  5. Btlvr

    Btlvr New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Location:
    Essex, Md 21221
    More pics! 20190114_101332.jpg 20190114_101431.jpg 20190114_212454.jpg 20190114_212501.jpg
     
  6. Dana

    Dana In the trades

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Location:
    01609
    The tees are suspiciously close to one another. Are you dead-sure they're not monoflow?

    Or is one of the fat pipes the supply manifold, the other the return manifold, and it just happens by accident that the take-offs are only a few pipe diameters apart (possibly to allow them to be pumped separately)?

    The "pumping head" or flow resistance of lengths of fin tube is several times higher than that of a cast iron rad and 1" pipe feeding it. The valves all add pumping head to it as well. When the fin tube baseboard is plumbed essentially in parallel with the rads it doesn't get enough flow to do much. A higher volume pump might fix that, but you should do the math on it first. The -007 can easily move enough water to heat the place, but perhaps not in all rooms with that paralleled radiator & TRV setup. Adding tiny secondary pump controlled by a room thermostat on just the fin-tube loop would surely do it, but it's a bit of a hack.

    FWIW: The HE-4 has enough boiler output to heat my sub-code antique 2400' + 1600' insulated basement house down to about -70F (and maybe yours too.)
     
  7. Btlvr

    Btlvr New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Location:
    Essex, Md 21221
    The 1 1/4" Y fat pipes in the 1st pic coming out of the boiler are the supply. The 2nd pic shows the supply branching off to two 3/4" pipes going to the copper fin baseboards on the 1st floor and the master bedroom on the 2nd floor. The other two 3/4" pipes are the return going to the 1 1/4" pipe. So do you think that I should install another circulator for on this side?
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  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Occupation:
    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
    Location:
    New England
    Flow always goes on the path of least resistance, which is what Dana was saying...the 3/4" lines have much more resistance to flow than the 1-1/4" lines, so they don't actually get much flow and therefore, can't provide much heat output.
     

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