Help

[JaKarl]

I had a Craftsman 1/2hp. convertible deep-shallow well pump for my garden. It stopped working about a month ago. The motor did nothing, no sound, no leaks.

An electrician came out and verified that it was getting power, 230V. First, he checked the fuse box and it was fine.

I figured that the pump had died so I purchased another and installed it myself. I bougth the same brand, but upgraded to a 1hp.

I am getting the same results...absolutely nothing. The manual said to check the discharge switch if motor does not turn on. I can find no such switch and they do not show a picture or location in the manual. It also says to check the fuse. What fuse? My fuse box is fine and a new product shouldn't have a blown fuse, right? There is also no fuse visable, although there may be one inside the motor.

To avoid additional expenses, I'm trying to fix this problem myself. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you,
Karl

 

[Bob NH]

If you are going to do any electrical work you need a meter. You can't see Ohms and Volts. Last week at a Sears outlet store they were $10; and you should be able to get one at Sears hardware dept or Radio Shack for $20. Get a digital, not the needle type. You can spend more on fancier stuff if you want but you don't need it.

Consider this a learning experience to save you having to call an electrician every few months for as long as you own a home.

When you are measuring 230 Volts you are actually measuring the difference between two 115 volt lines for which the alternating current sine waves are opposite each other (out of phase). If you measure either side of the 230 volt line to ground or neutral, it should be 115 Volts. When you are measuring, check both between the wires (230 Volts) and from each wire to ground (115 Volts).

Be sure the pump is wired for 230 volts. If it isn't, you need to change it. Most 1 HP pumps come through at 230 Volts. There is usually a diagram on the motor nameplate or inside the electrical cover to tell you how to change from one to the other.

Make sure the pressure switch is connected properly. There are usually 4 screws; two with wires going to the motor and two for the incoming wire. There will also be a place, usually a green screw, to connect the ground wire.

When the pressure is low there should be zero Ohms between the incoming wire and the corresponding motor connection for each of the incoming wires. There should be a few ohms (probably less than 10) between the points where each of the incoming wires will be connected.

With the power off you should be able to check the circuits by manually actuating the switch. When there is no pressure, measure the resistance between the incoming wire connection points. Then use a flat screwdriver to pry up the plate (usually there is one) at the bottom of the pressure switch. You should hear a click and the resistance between the incoming wires should be infinite or open or however your meter indicates that condition.

When you turn on the pump power, make sure someone is at the pump. If the pump is connected as 115 Volts it will trip out the internal overload protector in the pump in just a very few seconds. If it does that, stop and fix the connection before proceeding.

If you check out the pump and none of this seems to work, post another message with the details.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[JaKarl]

Thanks Bob,

I bought a digital meter and checked what I could understand from your post.

The pump came wired at 230V, so that is fine.

There is 115V going to each of the power lines, but when I try and measure between the wires I get nothing, no voltage, when I believe I should be getting 230V, correct?

The pressure switch is wired properly.

I didn't totally understand the rest of you post, paragraphs 6,7,8, so I haven't gotten to that yet. I was wondering if my problem may have been identified by not being able to get a 230V reading?

Thanks,
Karl

 

[Bob NH]

It looks like somehow the wiring from your main panel is connected so that both wires are the same phase. That is the ONLY way that you can get 115 Volts on each wire but nothing between them. Somebody has crossed up the wiring and that "Electrician" that you had looking at it would not be someone that I would call back for having missed it.

You need to trace this back to your panel where the wires are probably connected to two separate circuit breakers instead of to a "2-pole" circuit breaker. Either that or someone has crossed things up in a switch somewhere along the way. In any event, you need to trace this back using your voltmeter to find the source of the problem.

Start at the breaker and see if you get 230 Volts there. Then go to the next place on the line toward the pump. You must keep going until you find the problem. I can't even guess how they could have messed it up. Tell us what you find and we can analyze some more.

 

[Bob NH]

I have figured out how you could get 115 Volts from the same phase on both wires at the pump. If one pole of the circuit breaker is tripped or failed or one fuse is blown, or if there is a bad connection or break in one of the wires from the breaker, and the wires are both connected to the pressure switch and the pump, then you would measure 115 volts to ground on both wires. The reason is that the wire that is "good" will be connected to the other terminal through the pump motor.

I assume that the original pump was 230 Volts and therefore was connected through a 2-pole breaker or through two fuses. Do you have fuses or circuit breakers?

First, check the voltage at the circuit breaker or fuse panel at the pump circuit connection. If you don't have 230 Volts there, that is probably the problem.

After you check the breaker/fuse connection, you can verify the "bad connection" hypothesis by disconnecting both of the leads from the pressure switch, and then checking the voltage on each wire. You should measure 115 Volts on one wire, and no voltage on the other wire. Be careful when you do that because you will have hot wires that are loose. You should be able to identify the failed wire.

If I am correct in this, then you will have to trace the failed wire to find where it is disconnected or broken.

 

[JaKarl]

I checked the circuit breaker and each wire rates at 120V, and I believe they are connected to a "2-pole" breaker because the switches are connected. I get the same result at the breaker, both register individually at 120V, but I get no reading when I check them together. After the circuit breaker, the wires go underground and don't come back up until they meet the pump.

This is what doesn't make sense: The old 230V pump worked for years with this exact same wire configuration.

I don't understand how the pump turns on because there is no switch, only power wires. The old pump turned on after the water was turned on.

I opened the motor on the new pump and changed the voltage to 115V and disconnected one of the power wires, but still nothing.

Thoughts.

Thanks again,
Karl

 

[JaKarl]

Hi Bob,

I posted my last response before I read your response at 7:20pm. Thanks for trying to figure this out with me, I really appreciate it.

Could half of the 2-pole circuit breaker be blown while the other is sending out 120V to each wire? I don't understand why each wire, at the circuit breaker, registers at 120V, but when I try them together I get nothing.

 

[Bob NH]

The breaker has probably failed.

You get 120 Volts on each wire because they are connected to each other through the pump.

Disconnect the wires at the pump and then measure the voltage at the breaker terminals. You will probably get 120 volts from one terminal to neutral, 0 volts from the other terminal to neutral, and 0 volts between terminals.

Now here is something that could be confusing. It is possible that there is a leakage current through the breaker. That very low current could still result in a voltage that your meter will measure. It could be the full voltage (240 Volts between terminals and 120 Volts to ground), or it could be some small voltage, often erratic.

There is a test that you can do if you are comfortable with it. Connect the pump TEMPORARILY to another 2-pole breaker if you have one. If it is a water heater that might be on, then disconnect the heater wires. If it is a dryer or oven or stove that you can turn off it can be left connected.

If you don't have another 2-pole breaker, then find a pair of 1-pole breakers adjacent to each other. Measure the voltage between them (should be 240 Volts), disconnect the wires from those breakers and connect your pump wires. Turn on BOTH of those breakers and your pump will probably run.

Restore the original connections and get a new breaker for your pump. Take the old one with you to be sure the new one matches.

 

[JaKarl]

I bought another breaker and it now reads 240V at the curcuit breaker when I test both lines together. It did not do this before, so I think there was a problem with the old breaker.

Unfortunately, the motor still doesn't work.

When I measure the voltage at the pump I get the same thing, 120V for each line, but no reading when I put them together.

I changed the pump to accept 115V and only hooked up one of the lines and still nothing.

 

[hj]

pump

Your description tells us a lot about the problem, but unfortunately nothing about the solution. We would still have to know at what point you stop getting 240 volts and drop down to zero across the two wires. Where it happens is where the problem is.

 

[Bob NH]

This is not complicated. You must connect the wires with 240 volts to the motor windings.

Did the pump come with pressure switch attached and motor wired to it? If not, do you KNOW that the switch is connected correctly?

1. Now that the breaker is fixed, verify that you have 240 volts at the pump end of the wire, when the wires are not connected to the pump.

2. Now BEFORE you connect the wires to the pump, measure the resistance (ohms) of the pump windings at the terminals where the wires from the motor are connected to the pressure switch. You should measure a few ohms. If it is zero ohms, or "open circuit", then you have a motor problem or something is not connected correctly.

3. Now measure the resistance at the terminals where you are going to connect the power leads. It should be the same resistance that you measured at the motor leads. That tells you if the pressure switch is closed, which it should be at zero pressure.

4. Now if you have 240 volts on the wire, AND if you are measuring a few ohms at the terminals where you are going to connect the power wires, and the motor is connected for 240 Volts, THEN, with the circuit breaker off, connect the power wires to the pressure switch.

5. Get someone to turn on the circuit breaker while you stand at the pump. If you get smoke, tell them to turn off the breaker. If you get nothing, measure the voltage at the power leads, AND measure the voltage at the motor leads. If it isn't 240 Volts, then something is not connected correctly.

 

[Abikerboy]

Hi.
Had a similar problem years ago with a friend I was helping out. Measured 238 at the breaker box, but nothing rated at 220v beyond the breaker box would work. Problem was simple with his house, as his electric range, electric dryer, and electric water heater would not work. Everything else seemed fine. Turned out, after calling the power company, that a neutral tap in the transformer supplying his house was at fault. I cant exactly understand this, as I would think that a bad nuetral tap would feed 220 to everything. but after the electric company replaced the transformer on the pole, everything was fine. Anyway, my suggestion is that if the pump is the only thing that you have that runs on 220, this could be a possibility. If you have other 220 volt appliances or equipment, and these function properly, then this is not your problem. Also, other question is, if a bad neutral in a transformer can cause this problem with 220 circuits, then what about a broken/frayed cable supplying your pump? Is it possible for a small flow to exist to ground for an accurate reading with a volt meter, yet it allows enough resistance not to run a pump?
Rob

 

[Mikebarone]

Just a thought

I don’t think I would wire your pump to run on 120 volts. If you do, the pump will require twice the amps to operate, on one of the hot wires, and those wires might not be large enough to handle the increase in amps.

 

[Lakee911]

I cant exactly understand this, as I would think that a bad nuetral tap would feed 220 to everything.

It would, but if you've got pretty well balanced then you'd still get the 120 to each device. You've also got the ground and I'd think a good ground might help there too. Lost nuetral causes some goofy things sometimes.

Jason

Is it possible for a small flow to exist to ground for an accurate reading with a volt meter, yet it allows enough resistance not to run a pump?

Yes, sometimes when a wire isn't tied to ground it can float and read anything depending on phase, whats near by, weather, etc. You might be reading a 220 potential and it just can't source any current.

I'd wire in a couple lamps between nuetral and the two hots. Might find one lights and one doesn't, but both read 120V.

Jason

 

[JaKarl]

This is not complicated. You must connect the wires with 240 volts to the motor windings.

Did the pump come with pressure switch attached and motor wired to it? If not, do you KNOW that the switch is connected correctly?

1. Now that the breaker is fixed, verify that you have 240 volts at the pump end of the wire, when the wires are not connected to the pump.

2. Now BEFORE you connect the wires to the pump, measure the resistance (ohms) of the pump windings at the terminals where the wires from the motor are connected to the pressure switch. You should measure a few ohms. If it is zero ohms, or "open circuit", then you have a motor problem or something is not connected correctly.

3. Now measure the resistance at the terminals where you are going to connect the power leads. It should be the same resistance that you measured at the motor leads. That tells you if the pressure switch is closed, which it should be at zero pressure.

4. Now if you have 240 volts on the wire, AND if you are measuring a few ohms at the terminals where you are going to connect the power wires, and the motor is connected for 240 Volts, THEN, with the circuit breaker off, connect the power wires to the pressure switch.

5. Get someone to turn on the circuit breaker while you stand at the pump. If you get smoke, tell them to turn off the breaker. If you get nothing, measure the voltage at the power leads, AND measure the voltage at the motor leads. If it isn't 240 Volts, then something is not connected correctly.

It looks like I made a mistake yesterday. The breaker is fine. One of the hot wires is bad. I get 240V at the breaker, 120V at the pump end of one of the wires, and 5V at the other hot wire. I figured out why I made the mistake when I followed your directions in paragraph number one.

I measured the ohms from the motor and got the same number, 3.5, from the motor terminals and at the power terminals.

So, I followed the directions and changed the pump to accept 120V as it can take either 120V or 240V, just to see if it would work. I made sure to connect the correct wire.

I turned on the power and got nothing again. I measured the voltage inside the motor and it's 120V, so it is getting power. I'm wondering if my 2-pole circuit breaker should be changed to a single breaker? I don't understand how the damn motor turns on. The maual is no help. How does the pressure switch actually turn on? The water valve is on.

 

[Bob NH]

"I turned on the power and got nothing again. I measured the voltage inside the motor and it's 120V, so it is getting power. I'm wondering if my 2-pole circuit breaker should be changed to a single breaker? "

You should measure the voltage at the pressure switch between the wires connected to the pressure switch; not to ground. It isn't getting power unless it has the required voltage (in this case 115 volts) between the wires at the pressure switch where they are connected to the motor terminals.
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If you change it to 115 Volts you still need two good wires, in addition to the ground. You should connect the motor for 230 volts and leave it there.

If it is 230 volts, then each of the wires from the breaker is 115 volts relative to neutral, but they are out of phase so they produce 230 volts relative to each other. When you are using 230 Volts you don't need a neutral connection.

If you connect it for 115 volts then you have one hot 115 volt wire, and a neutral which is connected to the neutral bar at the breaker panel.

Let's assume that you have one wire that is hot (115 volts when measure to neutral or ground).

Now the second wire can be connected to the other pole of the breaker, resulting in 230 volts BETWEEN those two wires; OR the second wire can be connected to the neutral bar, resulting in 115 volts at the pump between the two wires. If you have a bad wire you need to find a way to get a good wire.

Maybe you need to do something to prove to yourself that the system works. I don't know how far it is from your panel to your pump, but you could get a roll of 14/2 with ground, and run it through a window and over the ground between the circuit breaker panel and the pump. Connect your pump motor for 230 volts. Connect the white and black wires of the cable to the two terminals of the 2-pole breaker, and connect the green/bare wire to the ground in the CB panel. It is probably the same bar as the neutral bar.

Then connect the cable to the pressure switch. The white and black wires go to the terminals of the switch. The green/bare wire goes to the green screw in the pressure switch.

Then go turn the breaker on. If you can't see the pump from the panel, get someone else to do it. The motor should turn. You may need to prime the pump to get water.

If you are going to replace the wire with new wire under ground, then get UF grade wire. UF means Underground Feeder and is designed to be buried. If the bad wire is in a conduit it might be possible to pull a new wire but I wouldn't count on it. If it's steel conduit that got rusty over time you probably can't pull new wire through it.

If it is easy to move your pump for a test you cold move the pump to near the breaker and hook it up with a short cable. I think you need to figure out how to run that pump without the uncertainty of underground wiring.

If you still have the old pump you could use that for the test.

The pressure switch works as follows. Most of them are what is called "double break", meaning that there is a bar that connects a pair of contacts for the line (power) and motor. There is a separate bar/contact-pair for each line.

When the pressure is low, the spring causes the mechanism to engage the contacts. When the pressure increases, there is a diaphragm or bellows or piston that forces a plate on the switch to separate the contacts. When you have no pressure, the switch will be closed so the pump will come on as soon as power is applied.

 

[JaKarl]

I'm finally done and the well works perfectly. I bought some UF wire, buried it, and the pump motor works great.

Thanks for all your help Bob. I couldn't have done it without you.

Karl