Help with water softener installation with no drain nearby

[Tspunk]

Hello,

I've had so much trouble these past 2 months trying to figure out what to do about my water softener.

I've had hard water since I moved in and finally decided to buy a Whirlpool WHESFC water softener a couple months ago. I thought it would be quite simple for a plumber to install it not knowing about the fact that it needs a floor drain or some drain nearby.

In my basementn, I have a well pump that goes to a whole house filter and my plan was to have a plumber install the water softener right after that.

The CSI whole house filter drains up tot he ceiling, across the ceiling (PEX) to the other corner of my basement into what I think is called a standing pipe. Total run is about 47 feet.

I thought after reading the directions that the water softener could do the same thing, but after contacting Whirlpool, they specifically told me that 30 feet is the max run horizontally.

On another plumbing forum, someone said that it is fine to go the 47 feet. Just use a larger diameter PEX (I think he said .75") and the water pressure of the house will be able to carry it that distance.

However, after contacting Whirlpool, they said:

"The 30 foot horizontal restriction is in place because the water flowing through any longer of a drain tubing will cause enough friction/restriction to cut off the suction being created by the venturi assembly. Using a larger diameter tubing wouldn’t necessarily resolve this problem. Some of the water coming out of the machine during the recharge is running at a pace of up to 2 gallons per minute."

So, now I don't really know what to do. The only plumber that was even willing to come take a look said that he wasn't sure either. He has never dealt with water softeners and the only water softener plumbers are the ones that work for water softener/filtration companies nearby, which will NOT work on my system unless I buy the softener from them.

Therefore, I am now doing my own research online.

So, after looking at my system, I do see that I can cut the horizontal distance if I can somehow extend where the drain is.

I can cut it to about 30 feet if I don't have to go all the way to the standing pipe where everything else is being drained. I was wondering if you guys could look at my photos and see if a plumber could just add a PVC pipe that goes diagonal (see my drawing, blue pen) right to the standing pipe?

Here are the pics. If you see the red line that comes up from my water filter, it goes up and across, does a 90 degree to the right, and then down more, and then a 90 degree left, and then to the standing pipe:

https://imgur.com/a/iDpChjV

Let me know if you guys need better photos or a videos to help me figure out a solution. Thanks so much if anyone can help me!

 

[Aaroninnh]

Run 1 inch pvc for the long run.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

Your filter uses the same water pressure to backwash. Depending on the filter media and the diameter of the tank, the filter's backwash flow rate is likely to be greater than 2 GPM. Although it would have been advisable to have increased the size for the extended length drain line from the filter to at least 3/4", I gather it has been functioning OK with what appears to be only 1/2" diameter PEX.

That softener's highest drain rate (2.0 GPM) will be during the Backwash and Rapid Rinse phases of regeneration. The suction created by slow rinse flow through the venturi will draw brine into the softener from the brine tank but that flow rate during the brine draw phase will be substantially less than 1 GPM. With such a low flow rate, there is likely to be insufficient flow restriction in the long length drain line to cause an issue. To minimize any potential restriction, increase the drain line to 3/4". PVC, similar to PEX, will allow a long run without connections, but will have a larger internal diameter than PEX.

An air gap device will isolate each of your potable water treatment device drain lines from the building's drain system to prevent any potential of bacterial cross contamination of there should be a sewer backup. Although it would be unlikely for all conditions to occur at the same time for contaminated water to be drawn back into one of the treatment devices, an air gap is a cheap and easy method to ensure that cannot happen even in a one in a million occurrence. An air gap will be needed for for each potable device's drain connection where it discharges into the standpipe.

Here's an example of multiple air gap devices installed on a single standpipe.
https://airgap.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/AG100-001-6.jpg

 

[Aaroninnh]

Bannerman is bang on. I used 3/4 PVC myself and have had zero problems, and my total distance is about 30 feet also.

I only suggested 1" PVC to shut whirlpool up, but the reality is 3/4 PVC can move a lot of water and won't be an issue.

 

[Tspunk]

Your filter uses the same water pressure to backwash. Depending on the filter media and the diameter of the tank, the filter's backwash flow rate is likely to be greater than 2 GPM. Although it would have been advisable to have increased the size for the extended length drain line from the filter to at least 3/4", I gather it has been functioning OK with what appears to be only 1/2" diameter PEX.

That softener's highest drain rate (2.0 GPM) will be during the Backwash and Rapid Rinse phases of regeneration. The suction created by slow rinse flow through the venturi will draw brine into the softener from the brine tank but that flow rate during the brine draw phase will be substantially less than 1 GPM. With such a low flow rate, there is likely to be insufficient flow restriction in the long length drain line to cause an issue. To minimize any potential restriction, increase the drain line to 3/4". PVC, similar to PEX, will allow a long run without connections, but will have a larger internal diameter than PEX.

An air gap device will isolate each of your potable water treatment device drain lines from the building's drain system to prevent any potential of bacterial cross contamination of there should be a sewer backup. Although it would be unlikely for all conditions to occur at the same time for contaminated water to be drawn back into one of the treatment devices, an air gap is a cheap and easy method to ensure that cannot happen even in a one in a million occurrence. An air gap will be needed for for each potable device's drain connection where it discharges into the standpipe.

Here's an example of multiple air gap devices installed on a single standpipe.
https://airgap.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/AG100-001-6.jpg

Hi Bannerman, thank you for your reply! So just to clarify, you said 3/4 PVC will have a larger diameter than 3/4 PEX, but if we want to do PEX, it would also be okay if we used 3/4?

This is going exactly 47 feet. I ask because it would just be easier for him to use PEX since that was the original plan and he is used to using PEX.

Lastly, I will also ask my plumber about getting and installing that air gap device.

 

[Aaroninnh]

Hi Bannerman, thank you for your reply! So just to clarify, you said 3/4 PVC will have a larger diameter than 3/4 PEX, but if we want to do PEX, it would also be okay if we used 3/4?

This is going exactly 47 feet. I ask because it would just be easier for him to use PEX since that was the original plan and he is used to using PEX.

Lastly, I will also ask my plumber about getting and installing that air gap device.

PVC is the smarter choice as the fittings are on the outside of the pipe and the inner diameter is bigger.

3/4" PEX is only .68" inside diameter, where 3/4" PVC is .82" ID.

If PEX is what you want to use, then I would go with 1" PEX, which has an ID of .875".

 

[Tspunk]

PVC is the smarter choice as the fittings are on the outside of the pipe and the inner diameter is bigger.

3/4" PEX is only .68" inside diameter, where 3/4" PVC is .82" ID.

If PEX is what you want to use, then I would go with 1" PEX, which has an ID of .875".

will do the 1", thank you!

and just for my own knowledge, since i know nothing about plumbing, was the idea to have another drain pipe connecting to the standing pipe not possible, like in my drawing? i always wondered about why or why not something can work when it comes to plumbing. i just figured the PEX would drain with an air gap where i drew, and that water would just flow horizontally down the PVC pipe and then connected into the side of the standing pipe that everything else is currently draining into.

 

[Aaroninnh]

will do the 1", thank you!

and just for my own knowledge, since i know nothing about plumbing, was the idea to have another drain pipe connecting to the standing pipe not possible, like in my drawing? i always wondered about why or why not something can work when it comes to plumbing. i just figured the PEX would drain with an air gap where i drew, and that water would just flow horizontally down the PVC pipe and then connected into the side of the standing pipe that everything else is currently draining into.

Im not sure what the exact code is, maybe someone else will weigh in, but in general you can't go more than 30 horizontal inches, or 24 vertical inches, from the fixture drain (extrance to the pipe in this case) and the trap.


Also, you do need to add an airgap. What is going on now with that filter drain going right into the standpipe is no bueno. In theory you could siphon raw sewage out of the trap and suck it back into the filter/softener. Unlikely, but regardless thats why you need an airgap.

 

[Tspunk]

Im not sure what the exact code is, maybe someone else will weigh in, but in general you can't go more than 30 horizontal inches, or 24 vertical inches, from the fixture drain (extrance to the pipe in this case) and the trap.


Also, you do need to add an airgap. What is going on now with that filter drain going right into the standpipe is no bueno. In theory you could siphon raw sewage out of the trap and suck it back into the filter/softener. Unlikely, but regardless thats why you need an airgap.

ah, thanks! never knew about the vertical and horizontal inches from fixture drain and trap being a factor!

 

[Tspunk]

PVC is the smarter choice as the fittings are on the outside of the pipe and the inner diameter is bigger.

3/4" PEX is only .68" inside diameter, where 3/4" PVC is .82" ID.

If PEX is what you want to use, then I would go with 1" PEX, which has an ID of .875".

Hi, I got the 1 inch PEX and I'm looking at my water softener. It says the following in the manual:

https://i.imgur.com/jdlJmn9.png



How do i connect from the 1/4 NPT to the 1" PEX? Can you link me or show me the picture of the adapter that I need?

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

How do i connect from the 1/4 NPT to the 1" PEX? Can you link me or show me the picture of the adapter that I need?

The softeners I know of have the drain line as 1/2 inch npt or bigger. 1/4 inch MIP out of the softener and then expanding up to 1 inch seems a little odd. I understand that you don't want to be blamed for backpressure.

1/2 in. MIP x 1/4 in. FIP Brass Bushing Fitting
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-2-in-MIP-x-1-4-in-FIP-Brass-Bushing-Fitting-802639/207176802 would increase the size to 1/2 inch, at which point there are a lot of choices. What is available would depend a lot on your favorite gittin' place.

I might consider going with a foot or so of 1/4 ID tubing hooked to the barb, and expand from there. That would prevent stressing of the plastic softener drain output.