Help with Sewer Line

[Chopsy]

I am a newbie and am doing a modification to a sewer line and would be grateful for some expert advise.

I have a cast iron 4in sewer line that has a 2in cast iron elbow to which a 2in kitchen sink drain pipe was attached. The elbow is connected to some type of reducer in the sewer line. The kitchen drain pipe will be replaced with PVC (see "Old" in image).

I would like to do one of two things:
1. Remove the elbow, add a Fernco donut, add a piece of 4in PVC, add a 4x2 PVC reducer, add two 2in PVC long sweep 90s to bring pipe towards the kitchen drain pipe (see New 1 in image)
2. Remove the elbow, add a Fernco donut, add a piece of 4in PVC, add a 4x2 PVC wye (it would be sloped towards the kitchen sink drain that I need to connect), extend the 2in portion of the wye with 2in PVC pipe and a 45 PVC elbow to reach the kitchen drainage pipe, put a PVC cap on the end of the wye (No more connections needed here) (see New 2 in image).

I would be grateful if someone can assist with the following:
1. Are the two things to be done up to code? I live in New York city.
2. If both are up to code, which is a better option?

Please forgive my plumbing terminology if they are not correct.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jeff H Young]

using 45's with clean out on end is better than other option 2 90's

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Chopsy]

using 45's with clean out on end is better than other option 2 90's

Jeff,
Thanks for responding to my post. So are you saying that for option 2, instead of using a 4in cap, use a 45 and add a clean out. If yes, can I extent the 45 with pipe to bring it up to a height that is accessible and then add the clean out. I plan on covering the sewer pipe and wye with sand and then add a concrete floor on top. Also, please confirm that for option 2 that I could roll the wye.
Thanks in advance.

 

[wwhitney]

If you are in NYC, is PVC DWV an approved material? NYC has a strict plumbing code, you may need to stick with metal, I don't know.

If you want a cleanout (which seems like a good idea and may be required), the simplest option, starting at the 4" sewer line end and going upstream, would be:4" pipe extension (as required), 4" 45, 4" pipe segment (if required to clear a footing or other buried obstacle), 4" 45 with the inlet vertical against the foundation wall, 4" pipe segment to get above final grade, 4" cleanout tee, 4x2 reducer, etc.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Chopsy]

If you are in NYC, is PVC DWV an approved material? NYC has a strict plumbing code, you may need to stick with metal, I don't know.

If you want a cleanout (which seems like a good idea and may be required), the simplest option, starting at the 4" sewer line end and going upstream, would be:4" pipe extension (as required), 4" 45, 4" pipe segment (if required to clear a footing or other buried obstacle), 4" 45 with the inlet vertical against the foundation wall, 4" pipe segment to get above final grade, 4" cleanout tee, 4x2 reducer, etc.

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks Wayne. Yes, NYC allows PVC for sewer line. I will implement your solution for the clean out as long as I have enough space between the wye and the foundation wall.

 

[wwhitney]

Just to double check, the plumbing codes I'm familiar with (UPC and IPC) define the building sewer as being only outside the footprint of the building; any part of the drainage system within the footprint of the building is called the building drain, even when buried. So are you sure that PVC is allowed for the building drain?

Also, my suggestion doesn't involve any wye. The kitchen drainage runs through the above grade cleanout tee.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Chopsy]

Wayne, Thanks for responding.

If I am reading the code incorrectly, my apologies. I checked the NYS code https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/09/2020-pcnys-november-2019.pdf. Section 703.2 states "Drainage pipe in filled ground. Where a building sewer or building drain is installed on filled or unstable ground, the drainage pipe shall confirm to one of the standards for ABS plastic pipe, cast-iron pipe, copper or copper allow tubing, PVC plastic pipe or polypropylene plastic pipe indicated in Table 702.3". Table 702.3 shows Material and Standard. PVC is in the material section. I cannot find anything about joining cast iron with PVC. Section 705 speaks about Joints but just list the joins within the category. If you can point me in the right direction, I'll be grateful.

Also, I thought you were referring to my image (New 2) which has a wye, since I need to create a clean out as Jeff suggested. My new 2 image needs to connect to two sinks (on the same level) so I'll be using a double fixture fitting (one arm goes to each sink) and the top goes to a vent. I did not include it in the image since I think I have it covered.
If you are not speaking about my image (New 2), are you speaking about the image (New 1) or a different configuration that is in my image.

Pardon the verbose post and thanks in advance.

 

[wwhitney]

I'm under the impression that NYC has a different plumbing code than the rest of NYS. @Sylvan would know.

My textual description was not in reference to either of your drawings (other than as to the goal). It just starts at the end of the existing buried 4" horizontal line, and lists the parts going upstream. Try drawing it out if it's not clear; if you have trouble, I can draw it out.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Chopsy]

I'm under the impression that NYC has a different plumbing code than the rest of NYS. @Sylvan would know.

My textual description was not in reference to either of your drawings (other than as to the goal). It just starts at the end of the existing buried 4" horizontal line, and lists the parts going upstream. Try drawing it out if it's not clear; if you have trouble, I can draw it out.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, you are right. NYC code is different from NYS code. I called up the city and they pointed me to the code in current use "2014 Construction Code" which includes the plumbing code. Also, code section 702.2 states that "Underground building sanitary drainage and vent pipe. Underground building sanitary drainage and vent pipe shall conform to one of the standards listed in Table 702.2." Table 702.2 includes PVC as a material.

I will sketch and upload a diagram about your suggestion (textual description) tonight and would appreciate your feedback.

Thanks.

 

[wwhitney]

Glad you could find the correct source. Does it allow PVC above grade as well, or do you have to convert to cast iron before emerging from grade?

Edit: I think I found the answer: in NYC, PVC above grade is limited to residential buildings of 5 stories or less, per footnote a:

https://up.codes/viewer/new_york_city/nyc-plumbing-code-2014/chapter/7/sanitary-drainage#702.1

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Chopsy]

Yes, saw that in the code. Thanks. Here is my sketch of your suggestion. Please let me know if it is ok.
If yes, can I modify it by removing the 4" cleanout tee, put the 4x2" reducer where the tee was, add a 2" cleanout tee, transition to the double fixture fitting. I'm trying to not make the kitchen drains too high so a 2" cleanout tee would give me less height than the 4".

 

[Sylvan]

Glad you could find the correct source. Does it allow PVC above grade as well, or do you have to convert to cast iron before emerging from grade?

Edit: I think I found the answer: in NYC, PVC above grade is limited to residential buildings of 5 stories or less, per footnote a:

https://up.codes/viewer/new_york_city/nyc-plumbing-code-2014/chapter/7/sanitary-drainage#702.1

Cheers, Wayne

Hi Wayne, the NYC code did allow PVC residencial only up to three stories but it was changed to 5 stories residencial.

The requirement is still the same,

A CO must be installed at the base of the stack.

The CO shall be the same size of the waste/ soil / storm line up to 4" and change of directions greater then 45 deg

The plumbing work has to be filed and the finish inspected

 

[wwhitney]

Yes, saw that in the code. Thanks. Here is my sketch of your suggestion. Please let me know if it is ok.

Okay, your new drawing is confusing, and looking back at your original drawing, I think I see the issue. With a flat drawing like that it is standard to only show 2 dimensions at a time--either one horizontal dimension and the vertical (an elevation) or two horizontal dimensions (plan view). But I see that in #1 in your original drawing you have a region labeled "horizontal plane" and a region labeled "vertical plane". I believe you are trying to say the downstream 90 is flat but the upstream 90 is vertical. I entirely missed that until now, as that's not a standard way to represent that.

So tell me if I have this correct: The existing 4" line is below final grade, horizontal (1% or 2% slope) and pointed at the foundation wall. You want to bring it up above grade, against the foundation wall, but not directly where it is pointed at, rather to the left. So the question is, which is greater, the desired left-right offset, or the distance between the end of the old work and the wall?

If the latter is greater, then I would suggest the following sequence going upstream:

Existing 4" cast iron hub (if it's in good condition)
Donut for PVC
4" horizontal PVC pipe (length required to make the upstream vertical come up against the wall; next fitting could instead be street if space is tight)
4" 45 with the inlet horizontal (to start moving to the left)
4" horizontal PVC pipe (length required to achieve the desired left-right offset)
4" LT90 with inlet vertical (this could be (2) 45s with a short pipe segment if you have a enough space and there's a buried obstacle like a footing to jog around)
4" vertical PVC (just enough to come above grade, as you said you want the double fixture fitting as low as possible)
4" cleanout tee
4x2 bushing (less height than a reducer)
2" vertical PVC pipe (as required)
2" double fixture fitting

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

You might want to make things in the vertical plane a different color (how about Violet for Vertical ). I assume the cast iron is in the horizontal plane and the wall is in the vertical plane and the double fixture fitting and vent are in the vertical plane.

 

[Chopsy]

You might want to make things in the vertical plane a different color (how about Violet for Vertical ). I assume the cast iron is in the horizontal plane and the wall is in the vertical plane and the double fixture fitting and vent are in the vertical plane.

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll follow you advise in the future and read up on how plumbing drawings are drawn so that I can do better.

 

[Chopsy]

Okay, your new drawing is confusing, and looking back at your original drawing, I think I see the issue.

Yes, I should have put in the necessary planes or drawn it differently but did not know what is the standard way. I will read up on how plumbing drawings should be drawn so that I could correct it in the future.

Your question: "So tell me if I have this correct: The existing 4" line is below final grade, horizontal (1% or 2% slope) and pointed at the foundation wall....." Yes. This is exactly what I wanted.

The distance between the end of the old work and the wall is greater so I will follow your detailed suggestions and post some pics once I'm finished with the project.

I would like to thank you for the time and effort you spent assisting me. I definitely leant a lot from your questions and suggestions which would be helpful for my next project.

Again, thank you very much.

 

[wwhitney]

If you want to try drawing out what I described, look up isometric drawing. And just use a single line for each pipe, rather than showing the actual width of the pipe. Good luck.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Chopsy]

If you want to try drawing out what I described, look up isometric drawing. And just use a single line for each pipe, rather than showing the actual width of the pipe. Good luck.

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks. Will do after the project.

 

[wwhitney]

Thanks. Will do after the project.

No need afterwards, photos would work for that. An isometric is only helpful if you'd like clarification or conformation on the layout I proposed. But if my text description is clear enough, it's not necessary.

Cheers, Wayne