General liability insurance question

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plumbernj

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General liability... I seem to remember as a business owner, sole proprietor, that I could purchase Gen liability insurance and it would be based on payroll, and not gross receipts.
Can anyone let me know if there are any insurance companies that still base your premium just on payroll?


Thanks
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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Your question is legit but from having general liability insurance for years, those numbers don't change the numbers a whole awful lot in the premiums. Maybe a $400 variance tops?


I myself have way over state required minimum's and they do request tax forms to show what they should base the coverage on.

Figure a grand or two for coverage and your off to the horse races. It's one of those expenses easily absorbed into the cost of doing business, no complaints.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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No answer here...same dilemma.
I just renewed my policy and got a statement requesting my gross income info.
Also, to add to the question...my policy states that if something were to happen after the fact that I needed to use my coverage, it's no good if I'm no longer with that policy/company...I want to find a policy that covers me regardless...I'd like to think thats what I pay for.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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been down this road last year

GRange insurance is a great insurance to look into
I saved about 7 k per year a while back and it gave me
the warm fuzzies......and tingely feelings all over my body


Grumpy....me , rugged and Cass had a pretty long discussioin
on this subject last year.....

mostly I was for having an Umbrella policy to be sure you
dont lose your pants...

here is the link if you want to read the debate

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7772
 
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plumbernj

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GRange insurance is a great insurance to look into
I saved about 7 k per year a while back and it gave me
the warm fuzzies......and tingely feelings all over my body

Good info, but grange is not in NJ.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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Thank you Mark, I reviewed it...alot of the legal stuff depends on what state your in, I already know about LLC & incorporating...but there are a few questions my agent is going to answer on monday.
 

Got_Nailed

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I use 3 different companies.
The one company I have my 2 houses, 6 cars, and my business.
My second company has a 1 million umbrella.
I do have Aflac also.

I did do the reading and then did some searching and I do need to talk to my agent.
 

joe in queens

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Gross receipts policies are not a big deal... just get one that is non-auditable. Then you can pretty much report whatever sales you want to determine the initial premium, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it afterwards.

To cover yourself in the event they try to weasel out of not paying a claim based on "false" information submitted in the application, divvy your business up, for example, for example, ABC Residential Plumbing, Inc. and ABC Commercial Plumbing, Inc. If most of your business is commercial, have ABC Residential your primary, and an endorsement for ABC Commercial as an additional insured. The way most insurance contracts are worded, "gross receipts" applies only to the primary insured, so you're covered.

Sleazy and unethical? Absolutely! Legal and legit? You bet it is.

Funny, our carrier earlier this year requested to audit us. I informed them that our policies were non-audit, and they said it was just for "statistical purposes". I could just imagine the caterwauling from the underwriters they found out our receipts were 68% on the light side. Maybe we won’t be renewed this time around, but savings from many previous years have already been banked.

By the way, disability policies are almost never audited, so have fun (hint, hint).
 

plumbernj

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joe in queens said:
Gross receipts policies are not a big deal... just get one that is non-auditable. Then you can pretty much report whatever sales you want to determine the initial premium, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it afterwards.


So what insurance company has a non-auditable policy?

What are you doing about workmans comp?
 

GrumpyPlumber

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I track ALL earnings, building credit and creditors use IRS statements for self employed when applying.
I'm not risking legal trouble or litigation in civil over a few hundred dollars at best per year by playing paper games.
 

joe in queens

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A number of companies have non-auditable policies, at least here in NY. But you need a good broker with a large client base that KNOWS insurance, not just a salesman that sells policies. Insurers will often "tailor" programs if there are enough premiums in certain markets, and that's why the right broker is important. The fees you'll pay the broker will pale in comparison to the savings.

If you're a small company, there's really no sense going through the machinations I described previously. But if you're a larger firm, the savings we're talking about could mean a new truck, a lot of cool tools, or a nice vacation... year in and year out.

As for WC, at least here in NYS, you're pretty much stuck because even if you have multiple companies under the same ownership or shareholder, it all goes under one master policy. However, there’s PLENTY you can do to make sure you're not overpaying.

First, delineate clerical versus non-clerical employees. The rate on clerical employees (your office staff) is much lower. And no playing games here - unless you want a big claim not to get paid.

Second, be sure to report the CORRECT payroll. Here in NY, overtime and other plus rate differentials are computed at 1.0 for WC purposes, so don't just take your gross payroll number otherwise you'll end-up paying big time - especially if you're a union shop with double and triple OT.

Third, watch WC auditors. Many are outside companies on contract and get paid and renewed based on how much extra premium they bring in. They're not just being lazy when they only ask for your 941's for an audit - it's a convenient way for them to "overlook" OT and other premium rate differentials so they can whack you on the full payroll. I've got two large refund checks sitting on my desk from this "omission" alone.

Fourth, and finally, don't submit small claims because they will hike up your experience mod. Small claims are often "over reserved" so a claim that ends up costing $300 could've been reserved for $5,000 for years until its closed - and you'll be paying premiums on that the whole time. Here in NY by law, small injuries (there are rules on this though) can be paid directly by the employer. And here's the best part: You can further reduce the check amounts you'll be writing by making sure doctors and hospitals are charging the allowed WC rate, not their regular uninsured rate.

Wow, I'm really giving away a lot of secrets here! But since everyone here has been so generous with their expertise, it's the least I can do to return the favor. Happy savings!
 

GrumpyPlumber

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OK Joe, we've had our differences, but I'll give credit where it's due...that was informative.
For curiousity...what do you do?
 
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