Failing trap primer?

[TheGewp]

Hi, i was wondering if anyone has ever heard a trap primer like the one pictured make a loud squawking noise. It sounds like some one is blowing on a kazoo. The noise is short, only lasts a second or so. The office has started calling it the phantom duck. Anyway, its the only thing in the general area of the noise that seems likely to be making it. It is random. I have tried to replicate it with a toilet flush near by but it doesnt seem to trigger it. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

Doesn't answer your question, but https://www.pppinc.net/products/tra...pressure-drop-type/p-2-trap-primer-valve.html describes the unit if somebody is following along.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

To activate that valve, a nearby fixture(s) will need to cause a 10 psi drop in supply pressure. Flushing a regular toilet is unlikely to do that but a flushometer flush valve would be more likely, or perhaps filling multiple toilets or running multiple cold faucets at the same time will cause the required pressure drop.

 

[TheGewp]

OK, i'll see if i can correlate the noise to other water use. I know it did it twice around when i took the picture, and i was the only one in the building. I wasn't using water, so i'm not sure what would have triggered it. The valve is in the wall between 2 urinals in the men's room. The access panel is on the outside of the men's room, and behind a door. The noise is definitively loudest with the panel open and the door to the room open, so i'm pretty confident that's the cause. Is there anything else that could cause a drop like that that doesn't require a human interaction? Or, i guess more importantly, is it even possible for that device to make that noise...

 

[Bannerman]

Municipal pressure can fluctuate depending on water usage throughout the town or city. The pumps that feed the system will typically supply water to users and will fill the water tower when usage drops below the pump"s delivery capacity. Some pumps may kick in when water usage increases which can change the pressure in the distribution system.

The trap primer valve will restrict flow when activated so water turbulence created when flowing through a restriction will often cause noise and maybe whistle depending in variables such as flow rate, the type of flow control and how much it is open, pressure, water temperature and the configuration of the piping.

Perhaps adjusting the valve's pressure setting may resolve the issue. The pressure adjustment procedure is specified in the Installation Instructions page at the link that Reach4 provided.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I thoughtthe adjustment was amount of water not pressure . but not sure . just like reach 4 said ppp is on the web everything I wanted to forget is there to refresh with. probebly the most common primers Ive installed many but havent serviced them .

 

[Bannerman]

The adjustment detailed in the installation sheet appears to calibrate the feed pressure. No flow rate adjustment is mentioned but as a Service valve is shown to shut-off incoming flow so as to service the primer valve, perhaps the service valve could be utilized for also controlling the flow rate. It seems any flow rate adjustment after the primer valve will result in water leakage from the valve's air inlet opening.

If the service valve was to be partially closed, I'm not certain if that would change the sensitivity of detecting a 10+ psi pressure drop?

Any debris that entered the primer valve could conceivably also cause a noise issue.

 

[TheGewp]

Pretty sure there is a check valve between our building and the city. I know we are required to have an expansion tank. I would think the shut off would not affect static pressure? I'll check out the manual for the unit and see about adjusting things. Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

Pretty sure there is a check valve between our building and the city. I know we are required to have an expansion tank. I would think the shut off would not affect static pressure? I'll check out the manual for the unit and see about adjusting things. Thanks!

In a house, you set the thermal expansion tank to the city water pressure or a little more to compensate for the water pressure being higher at times. I was wondering that if the tank was set to some lower pressure, that could maybe prevent the pressure drop that the trap filler depends on.

This is not relevant to the kazoo oscillation. It just seemed it could be relevant to think about for thermal expansion tanks when a trap primer is used.

 

[TheGewp]

The floor drain that it services seems to be at the correct level every time i check it, so i think it is actually functioning correctly. Its just loud and obnoxious. And i cant but think that the noise might be a sign that something is wrong with it and failure is immanent.

 

[Bannerman]

The Service Valve mentioned previous, is not the building's main entrance valve nor is it a check-valve but is a manual valve to isolate the trap-primer valve from the incoming feed. The service valve will normally be fully open when the trap-primer is in use, and can be closed while the trap primer valve is being repaired/serviced.

There may be actually nothing wrong with the function of trap primer valve. If you whistle a tune, just as the sound pitch will change if you change the shape of your mouth and increase or decrease the velocity of the air, similar can occur when water flow is restricted through a valve.

One thought is to recalibrate the primer's pressure setting as detailed in the installation sheet. The water pressure and temperature may be somewhat different compared to when the primer valve was initially installed and calibrated. Before making a final adjustment, first back-off the adjustment screw to allow constant water flow to flush out any sediment before setting the final calibration.

Another thought is to reduce the flow rate (velocity) through the primer valve by partially closing the Service valve.

 

[TheGewp]

Thanks for the replies. In the install doc the P2-500 is recommended to be installed with a debris lop and a union. It has neither. My guess is we have a clogged valve or primer. When you adjust the primer it gurgles a little but no flow, same unit downstairs opens up like a valve when adjusting). Looks like they screwed all the brass together with PEX-a barbs on either end and then attached it to the PEX line. Hopefully a quick swap for a good plumber. Thanks!