Ecowater 3000 R30 How does brinewell work?

[zippie]

I just moved into an apartment in a house the landlord recently bought. We're trying to get an old water softener working. He doesn't know anything about it from the prior owner. We get about 150 gallons of soft water each recycle. There's no iron in the water so we don't think the resin is clogged. He's cleaned the venturi, there's no salt bridge. He took out the brinewell assembly and thinks he fixed the float but we aren't sure of that. And we don't agree on how it works or what to try next. My hypothesis (since the user guide doesn't say) : I think (from the diagram) the brine tube feeds down and makes a u turn at the bottom and is stoppered by the float assembly next to the descending brine tube and above the valve. When the fill occurs, rising water in the tank makes the float assembly pull the stopper out of the brine valve so when the brining starts the brine line is open to suction from the venturi. Brining stops when the brine level drops in the tank (from drawing brine) to where the stopper closes the brine valve again. Can anyone confirm this or correct me? This seems awfully dependent on the right amount of water and salt in the tank and the right position of the valve and float to work right. The fill adds about an inch or a little more of water to the brine tank and brine removed lowers the level about an inch and a half. The tank is about 1/3 full of salt. Adding an extra backwash or removing it makes no difference. Same for changing the length of rinse. Resin cleaner and clorox made no difference. Perhaps coincidentally it seemed to start working somewhat when we added salt with iron removers in it. That was fairly early in the troubleshooting and most other steps except salt bridge check and venturi cleaning followed that. There's plenty of water flowing out the drain when backwash and rinse happen. Do I understand the brinewell assembly operation correctly? Do you have any other ideas?

 

[Bannerman]

When it adds 1+ inches of water to the brine tank, does the float actually float? I suspect not.

The float within the brine tank is most often a safety device, in case there is a malfunction, so as to shut off the fill water so as to not overflow the brine tank. The brine tank float is usually not needed for controlling the amount of water added as the water volume added to the brine tank is usually controlled by the control valve.

I'm currently searching for the user manual for your unit.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Measure your tank: height and either diameter or circumference. Let us know what you measure.

Add 3 gallons of extra water, and let that sit at least 3 hours before the next regeneration. After the next regeneration, how many gallons of softened water do you get then?

Do you know the hardness of your water?

Brining stops when the brine level drops in the tank (from drawing brine) to where the stopper closes the brine valve again. Can anyone confirm this or correct me?

That last part I can confirm without knowing anything about your unit. The method to stop the refill of water is usually a timed thing, and in most softeners that is done at the end of the cycle, although there are many that add that water in the early part of the regeneration.

 

[Bannerman]

The owners manual located here: http://americanaqua.com/wp-content/uploads/Eco-3000-Owners-Manual.pdf specifies your softener should utilize a 10" X 35" resin tank which contains 0.89 cuft of resin.

The manual (pg 23) specifies 3 softening capacity settings for that model:
8,300 grains when set to regenerate with 1.6 lbs of salt
25,000 grains when regenerated with 6.4 lbs of salt
30,200 grains when regenerated with 11.3 lbs of salt

With so little water entering the brine tank, I suspect the lowest setting is the one currently programmed. While the lowest setting is the most salt efficient, that setting provides little capacity and too frequent regeneration. Suggest programming the mid setting as a balance between good salt efficiency while reducing the regeneration frequency needed.

Each gallon of water entering the brine tank will dissolve 3 lbs of salt. With the middle capacity setting, expect 2.14 gallons of water to enter the brine tank.

You didn't specify the hardness quantity in your water.

 

[zippie]

We are using well water and the hardness is at least 20-25 or more judging by test strips that I have. 25 is the highest the strip can show. The landlord tested it but it reported in different units and he didn't know how to relate/convert. He has forgotten the value or I'd try to convert. I'm guessing it was ppm because the softener is set in grains. He says the water is safe coliform-wise based on the test. I've bought a test kit but not used it yet. I really wanted to verify the water is safe after we get this all working. And I'm not sure if it has a bunch of individual tests so that I could check the hardness now and the coliform count later. I haven't opened it. It's H20 OK Plus Complete Water Analysis kit by Labtech, www.labtechtests.com.

The link you provided is to, apparently, a newer model of 3000 R30. But that doesn't mean the information doesn't apply. Our unit looks just like the one on the manual I sent you. It doesn't have as many bells and whistles. If I take the 8300 grains capacity and divide by the 175 gal (approx) we're getting each recycle, then the hardness would be about 47---is that a correct calculation? Not outside the range of possibility. In this area (near Harrisburg PA) the water tends to be very hard. The softener says our average daily water use is about 90 gal.

The landlord took out the brinevalve and float assembly monday night and I watched. He checked all the parts and we thought about how it works. I now agree with you and him that the venturi must control the flow and the float is just to avoid tank overflow emergencies. It looks like it probably doesn't float when the fill happens. We changed the water hardness setting from 20 to 40 and recharged. Tonight or tomorrow we will start to see if it gets hard again after two days or lasts longer. The other thing we could change is the model code. Our manual is not clear what that will do but supposedly improves efficiency even though it says it's already set to be most efficient. ??? Go figure. We were avoiding that because it clears a lot of information although I'm not sure that matters. We could write down the values before we do it. Ours does not have the efficiency code setting that the manual you referenced shows.

 

[Reach4]

If I take the 8300 grains capacity and divide by the 175 gal (approx) we're getting each recycle, then the hardness would be about 47---is that a correct calculation?

Your math is good. The 8300 number may be suspect.

We changed the water hardness setting from 20 to 40 and recharged. Tonight or tomorrow we will start to see if it gets hard again after two days or lasts longer.

While that was a good move, I expect it will just cause the softener to regenerate more frequently. That is not bad.

If you want the softener to use more salt for each regen, looking at the manual that Bannerman pointed to, you would change the Efficiency setting to from Salt Efficient to Auto Adjusting. That would be in addition to increasing the hardness setting. In Auto Adjusting you are told to expect 25,000 grains of softening using 6.4 pounds of salt, vs expecting 8,300 grains of softening using 1.6 pounds of salt. I don't know if your unit uses 3/4 or 1 cubic ft of resin or what. 1.6 pounds of salt for the regen is awfully low. I would make that change to Auto Adjusting.

 

[zippie]

Sorry, Reach4. I overlooked your request for measurements above. The salt tank is sort of rounded rectangular 70" circumference. The salt tank is 34.5" high from the floor. The resin tank is inside the salt tank and hard to measure but it's cylindrical and roughly 9 inches diameter and as tall as the salt tank. These measurements do not include the electronics and valves that sit on top. It's about 1/3 full of salt and water comes just about to the half-full mark.

Now why would adding extra water make a difference? I've watched this thing all the way though several recycles and it always adds about 1.5 inches of water on the fill and then removes about the same amount on brining. It never comes close to using all the water. Are you trying to figure out what it does with less dilution by the fill water?

So the water is going hard now, not quite 48 hours after the last recharge with the hardness setting doubled. Test strip reads 7 but I'm sure will get to 25 or so. We got 227 gallons of softened water this time. Somewhat more than before but nowhere near double.

Of course we'd like it to provide the most soft water per pound of salt possible. But we don't have as many adjustment options as shown by the newer manual Bannerman provided. Here's a link to a manual that looks like it's for the older generation of machine we have: http://www.portasoftnj.com/docs/manuals/ECO3000.pdf
In particular, there is no efficiency setting that I know of other than changing the model code. By the way, there's an operating capacity display listed in the manual that does not appear on our machine. It advances straight from flow to switches.
Our machine looks exactly like this picture.

The landlord and I agreed the next thing we would try is changing the model code. Do you think we should do something else instead or in addition?

Thank you, guys. You're the best.

 

[zippie]

One more thing....in regard to your comment that doubling the hardness value would just make it recycle more often:
The display never shows the softening capacity on the display being exhausted. It drops from 100% to 80%, maybe 70% at the lowest and by then we have hard water. Something doesn't seem quite right there.

 

[Bannerman]

Our unit looks just like the one on the manual I sent you.

You didn't send a manual or a link to an online manual which is why I searched for one.

As you are now stating the resin tank is 9" diameter, that would imply the unit is not a 3000 R30 but is likely a ECR 3000R20 or ERR 3000R20.

 

[zippie]

Hmmm. I thought I attached the manual a few days ago but now I don't see how I would have done that--no attachment icon. Anyway, you have a link to it there now.

The 3000 R30 is what's listed on the unit as the model number. I wouldn't swear the 9" diameter is exact. I can only blindly stick the tape measure to the back of the salt tank and eyeball approximately which meas tape line lines up with the "top" of the resin tank arc but they are at least 4 inches apart and I am not lined up with those two points; I'm at an angle. If I line myself up with those two points then the top and wall of the salt tank obscure my view so I can't get more accurate and can't see the result.

I tried it again. I reached around the back and could get my finger between the resin tank and the wall of the salt tank. That's a half inch. I tried again to figure out which line on the tape the "top" of the resin tank arc lines up with. Looked like 10 this time. So that would be 9.5" diameter. And I probably don't have the tape at the farthest reach of the outer tank because the walls are curved, but that's probably 1/4" error at most.

 

[zippie]

7101289 This is a second number in the box labeled model number where it says 3000 R30. Does that help?

 

[Reach4]

In Reply #4 Bannerman posted what he expects your tank measurements to be. You could try getting a wire around the tank, measure with the wire, and divide by pi to confirm his prediction.

In that manual link you posted, page 14 has a method to get into the ADVANCED / SERVICE MENU. Does that method work at all on your unit?

Also, you can test half distilled water and half test water. Then double the measured hardness.

 

[ditttohead]

If you are going to attempt your own repairs, a real test kit is a must. Get a Hach 5B test kit. Test strips are not an acceptable way to test water softeners. It is equivalent to kicking tires to determine the air pressure.

 

[zippie]

I failed to get a wire around the tank. Maybe tomorrow my partner will have an idea how.

I don't see the words "advanced/service menu" on page 14 but yes, I can get to those options, i.e. setting the present time, the hardness and the user's chosen recharge time of day. And I can get to the secondary timer menu but I do not have a capacity display in that sequence (possibly it's now the one on the front default display with the current time).

I noticed that after this past two days, the softener remaining capacity display showed 50%. That's lower than it's gone before. That's with the change of hardness setting.

Tonight I left hardness setting at 40 and changed the model code to HR30 and am recycling. The software test number it displayed was 4.4. The initial model code was R30.

Thanks for the advice on the test kit.

 

[Bannerman]

The manual you provided the link is much different to the earlier one I linked to.

The R30 is specified on page 4 to utilize a 10" X 35" tank which is to contain 0.92 cuft of resin (chart on pg 27).

Although 3 operating levels (capacities?) are implied on page 17, those levels do not appear to be specified. I believe the HR30 is the correct model code to obtain greater capacity. After changing the model code, the timer needs to be reset and then reprogrammed as is specified on page 32. After reprogramming, I suggest then reviewing the 'Operating Capacity' setting as per page 17 and setting the capacity to the middle setting if not already programmed.

Edited to add: You might set the capacity to the highest setting initially so as to regenerate using the most amount of salt. Once the softener's operation has been restored, the capacity setting could then be reduced to the middle setting.

Also suggest setting the 'Maximum Days Between Recharges' (pg 18) to 'Auto' or 15 days. As the unit utilizes a turbine flow meter, the flow meter should then initiate regeneration once the appropriate amount of soft water has been consumed according to the capacity and hardness settings specified. As per Dittohead's advice, obtain a Hach test kit as the hardness setting needs to be accurate, not just an estimate.

To obtain high salt efficiency and to reduce the potential of hardness leakage through the softener, only a portion of total capacity is normally utilized between regeneration cycles. As the softening capacity regenerated is closely dependent on the amount of brine utilized, additional brine will be initially needed whenever total softening capacity has been depleted, as has occurred with your unit. To regenerate total capacity, extra water will need to be added to the brine tank so as to dissolve additional salt. As each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs of salt, 5 gallons added to the brine tank will dissolve 15 lbs which should be appropriate to restore the entire capacity of your 0.92 cuft of resin. After allowing about 2 hours for the additional salt to dissolve, a manual regeneration cycle can then be initiated.

 

[Reach4]

I failed to get a wire around the tank. Maybe tomorrow my partner will have an idea how.

If it is not easy, don't do it. There is not much to do with the info.

With the switch from R30 to HR30, you might see a change in the water level. I am thinking the H might stand for High. I am thinking that a little increase in the water level would be good. Once you get the water soft all of the time, then you could think about backing off on the salt.

Is the http://www.culliganadvantage.com/pd...s-other/EcoWater-3500and3502-ownersmanual.pdf manual closer to your unit?

 

[Bannerman]

I just saw your post whereby you specified that although the brine tank is 1/2 full of water, the level only drops by 1.5" during brine draw and refills by the same amount during fill.

I had understood from your initial post that only 1.5" of water was within the brine tank. Almost all of the fluid (brine) within the brine tank is normally drawn out during the brine draw cycle.

Has the brine level changed at all after you reset the model code to HR30 and then regenerated?

 

[zippie]

We got a wire around the tank and the circumference is 32". Divide by pi and you get 10.1. So I'd say it's a 10x35 resin tank. Consistent with what you wrote, Bannerman.

Yes, page 17 indicates there's a capacity setting or at least display. But on ours, advancing through the options never displays the capacity. It goes straight from flow to switches. The default display looks like the pictures on page 14-15. That little bar graph is the only indicator I've seen of capacity. It drops as the soft water is used. The odd thing is it always shows at least 50% capacity remaining after the water has gone hard.

After last night's regeneration under model code HR30, the water level is noticeably lower. There's only about an inch sitting on top of the salt. There had been around 3", maybe 4". Perhaps I should add more water as Reach4 had suggested because you, Bannerman, had said it will use 2+ gallons of brine during the cycle. Looks like it did take that much, but did not add that much back. I question whether there's that much total brine in there now, and if it might run dry during brining. And if 2+ gallons were added during fill, that would significantly dilute the brine--perhaps 50/50.

Earlier in this thread someone said the fill often happens AFTER the brine cycle. On ours, it clearly is the first step in the recharge.

 

[Reach4]

Earlier in this thread someone said the fill often happens AFTER the brine cycle. On ours, it clearly is the first step in the recharge.

You are very good at researching and acting. That method is often called "brine first".

It also makes it harder to see how much brine is produced, since you have only maybe a 2 hour window to measure. IF HR30 makes less brine, I think you would want to return to the R30 settings. Were those the only two choices for that setting? Anyway, things should be improving now that you have gone to hardness=40, even though you will be buying more salt.

 

[zippie]

Thank you. I'm persistent and analytical to a fault.

Well, the last recycle gave us water for about 4 days, 287 gallons before it went hard. Again the display still said there was 50% capacity left. So maybe we are getting close to normal operation. I'm just judging from my circa 1980 water softener in the house I used to own. I could go 10 days, living alone, between recharges. It did not work on demand and least frequent automatic option was weekly. I did it manually to minimize salt going into the septic tank. With two of us living here and a different water softener, it sounds like we might be getting something close to what we can expect. When the other apartment is rented, it will have to recycle pretty often.

In answer to your question, you appear to be able to set the model code to any of several, maybe numerous models,---I didn't page through all of them but there are others--although the manual warns it will not work right if you use a model setting other than R30 or HR30.

I'm going to take a sample of our well water to get a hardness number on it--learned a free source for this-- and then if I program that in, maybe the capacity meter will start reflecting something closer to reality. The well water is noticeably harder than the city water, so it won't be surprising if it requires a lot of salt I guess. That's life.

I added two gallons of water to the brine tank yesterday, letting it set for some hours before the recharge.

I'll post what the final outcome is. Thanks, Reach4 and Bannerman, for your help!