Demand Water Heaters/ DWH/

[GoingTankless]

Tankless

Just reading those responses that are left by DIY'ers and plumbers it seems pretty clear that the installs are the problem. The complaints are all the same. Not enough hot water or gas pipe sizing. Most of the complaints can be corrected with a qualified installer doing the job in the first place.

Do you remember when pvc and abs pipe was the new kid on the block. Everybody bitched and moaned. Now you can't find a home these days with out it. Pex piping too. Tankless is not new. Its been in Europe for over 75 years. Its been here for 30 years.

America doesn't no how to save anything. Just make it bigger. Thats fine for my steak dinner. I see no problem with using this technology. At first I was clueless in the way these systems worked. It wasn't long before I was able to service and install them with no call backs. There was a learning curve on my part but I took the time.

As for a sales pitch......far from it. I install Noritz, Takagi, and Bosch. They seem to be the most reliable. Bosch just stand out among the rest because of the way they are build. They are made in portugal. they are very reliable.They also have designed them to be worked on if necessary. The others are made by the japenese. Very compact and hard to work on.


The website.....I know...If I spent a 1/5 th of the time in giving the web designer all the info it would have been up and running a long time now. Maybe if things slow down a bit.

 

[Bob NH]

GoingTankless - How do you deal with deliming, etc.

1. Tell us in short plain sentences how you deal with the loss of heat transfer and increased pressure drop that results from "lime" deposits on the heat transfer services. How often must they be "delimed" to maintain the manufacturer's advertised efficiency and pressure drop? What is the deliming process and cost to get it done? My grandmother doesn't feel competent to deal with the process; is it automated?

2. What do you do to deliver required flow rates in the northern areas where municipalities deliver treated surface water at about 35 degrees F in the winter?

3. Why is it that when I travel in Europe where these are supposed to be so widely used, the showers are limited to about 1 GPM?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

correct installs and de-limes...

GOINGTANKLESS
, I know if it is installed correctly, proper gas line, proper sizing ect
and a good water conditioner

that are "supposed " to be ok...
but look at all the complaints....


If installed correctly, their is supposed to be
an isolartor valve installed in the line so the system can be backflushed
with something like "vinegar" fairly easily....

MY BIG QUESTON IS
how often and for how much $$$ is this service gonna cost ????
How long does it take to do this right????

I charge 89 per hour, so are people gong to SQUEAL about this???

again.....Rheem mentions this in their fine print..

 

[Oliver]

My 2 cents

The Europeans are miser people. They bath less often (especially french) and have their lights in the apartment buildings on timer. They drive small cars and and they activate their headlights after 9:30 PM. They earn 30% less than the americans, because they work less. They shop in the supermarket very little and pay for the plastic bags (most of them carry their own).

The fact that ONLY the americans and the canadians use the storage thanks reflects their more comfortable life style.

Claiming that the European technology is superb at this side of the Atlantic and suitable for us, to me is quite exageration. And yet as a free country we do have a choice on the matter. The europens don't.

 

[GoingTankless]

Tankless

As I said before, the correct installion is very important when installing a tankless unit. It doesn't matter who makes it but where its located ,gas line size, venting, and water piping.

When reading all the negative feedback, take you time and really read it. Most of there problems are from bad locations to poor installs. Having an unqualified person install a Tankless unit is like going to Wal-Mart to get your Porche worked on.

I know how easy it is to bash tankless heaters but technology is changing very quickly, they just keep getting better and better.

As for the dinosour (tank type heater) in the basement. It is a thing of the past that worked well for when we just didn't have anything better.

As for comfortable life styles, I have been in many countries. We have no idea how to relax. The europeans on the otherhand do take the time to enjoy life. We have two extremes. Work till you drop or live off the government.

I will admit the French don't care to shower too often, but thats the French. I have been all over our Great Country and have seen more than I wanted to of the people who use their shower as a closet.

Of course this is JMO

 

[Bob NH]

"As I said before, . . . " Going Tankless

Yes tankless, but you still didn't answer reasonable questions.

GoingTankless - How do you deal with deliming, etc.
1. Tell us in short plain sentences how you deal with the loss of heat transfer and increased pressure drop that results from "lime" deposits on the heat transfer services. How often must they be "delimed" to maintain the manufacturer's advertised efficiency and pressure drop? What is the deliming process and cost to get it done? My grandmother doesn't feel competent to deal with the process; is it automated?

2. What do you do to deliver required flow rates in the northern areas where municipalities deliver treated surface water at about 35 degrees F in the winter?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

please answer the question

tell me how much money it costs
and how often you aer supposed to
DE-lime the unit......


I am not asking you how quickly the technology is
getting better and better...

 

[GoingTankless]

Easy guys

Sorry for not answering your questions. I didn't read all the responses.

As far as these Tankless units, de-liming these as you know is required in area that have untreated water. It really depends on the quality of the water.

As for NJ we have extremes from water that comes out looking like "TANG" to water you think is bottled. In most of the area that need de-liming we install a water softener. NOT the salt type that everyone is used to. The salt type softeners state that you shouldn't drink it or water your plants with it. Some area even band the use of them just for the waste that comes from them when they flush.

This is who we get are systems from http://www.lifesourcewater.com/ They cost pretty close to the salt systems. You would need to contact them for the right application.

I wish I could give you an exact time but really the only way we find out that there is a problem is from the customer. In all the install that we have done there was only one client that had this probem. His water was not treated and it was a well system. We flushed the tankless heat exchanger with white vinegar for about 45 minutes. He had us install a water softener and since then he has been very happy with his install and it has been over 2 years.That flush cost him $110 plus the cost of the vinegar. He didn't choke or gasp. He did call Bosch and said a lot of nice things about my company. He also has a propane unit.

In most homes if there is such a problem with the water it should be treated just for the sake of extending the life of all plumbing and appliances and the well being of your customer. We have no problem with selling these systems. I would have to say we land at least 85% of all customers that call for an estimate.

As far as cost. We are getting $110 for the first hour and $95 for every hour over.

I have no problem teaching anyone about these units. I think as plumbers we should be far ahead of our customers. Telling them tankless sucks or don't work does nothing for us as professional plumbers. A educated customer can turn out to be your best.

I realize we all have our opinion....some more than others but the way things are going in this country right now and in the future......we have no choice but to change the way we think about wasting so much energy and our natural resources.

Don't worry I'm not all that green.....no tree hugging for me not yet. But, I do know that this technology does make a difference and if install right can give our custoers what they need.

If I didn't answer your question I will try again.......

 

[GoingTankless]

How often must they be "delimed" to maintain the manufacturer's advertised efficiency and pressure drop? What is the deliming process and cost to get it done? My grandmother doesn't feel competent to deal with the process; is it automated?

2. What do you do to deliver required flow rates in the northern areas where municipalities deliver treated surface water at about 35 degrees F in the winter?

I'm not sure if Grandmom should be working on her heater. I would hope that you would help her out. I can't even imagine having my grandmother maintaining her plumbing or heating.

Follow this link, this is what we do in the field http://protankless.com/Portals/10/TechBulletins/TWH-G2-13_Descaling.pdf

As for the temp coming in we average 40 degrees in the winter but it can and does get colder. The systems that we put in adjust automatically for the incoming water temp. We get at the minimum 5 gallons a minute through the 250sx and the 635es. Most of the systems are set at 116 degrees. The customers usually lower it from the default setting of 122.

The smaller units can be adjusted thru the burner controlls and flow meter adjustments.

 

[SteveW]

This is who we get are systems from http://www.lifesourcewater.com/ They cost pretty close to the salt systems. You would need to contact them for the right application.

According to LifeSource, their "water softener" "physically restructures hardness minerals." Now, it's been a while since I took physics, but I'm really curious how a home device changes atomic structures of calcium and magnesium....

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Tankless,

Tank heater here, just thought I'd stop in and chime. I give you credit where credit is due, I did not expect your responses to be what they are. Your honesty are the equations of


regular maintenance for buildup in compartment

buy more products such as a specialized softener

adjust to lower GPM flow .......that equates to limitations of multiple fixtures drawing hot water.

Complications of the know-how with these tanks against a simple straight forward simplicity of a tank.

Tankless heaters have their place as a supplement to certain needs but I'll state as I did before, the "lack of" information regarding what to look out for makes me think that there are reliability issues, and the consensus is slowly proving that through case history.

You cannot and will not spin that fact no matter how many words or links you can produce. And what do you say to those who are not satisfied, it's their fault?

As you can tell, reliability is a big issue with me. I can never see pulling the wool over anyone's eyes to make a buck, ever. Don't paint the fence red and tell me it's green. If your product has large maintenance costs tied into it's final tally, you are doing the plumbing industry a serious injustice for not letting those who are dumb to the facts that tankless are in their best interest.

 

[Cass]

Goingtankless,
You haven't said how hard the water is in your area. I deal with water that can be as hard as 30-40 grains / gal..

Is any of the water you deal with that hard?

How does activated charcoal deal with that? It doesn't explain it on the life sourse link you provided. You must explain it to your customers, why it doesn't need/use salt.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

looks questionable

I am gong to send this link on CARBON filters to

Gary Sussler the water softener expert here and see what he has to

say about this comapny that is supppose to be the tankless solution....


I am wondering what is the difference betwween a normal water conditioner

and this carbon unit????http://www.lifesourcewater.com/


the water in our area is as hard as hell......and I am curious...



but if it quacks like a duck.........

 

[SteveW]

Actually, it's not the carbon filter they're promoting as an alternative to conventional water softeners - it's the "Beotron" unit.

I couldn't find any explanation on the website of how/why it works -- just a picture of a Beotron unit after 14 years of service.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

need more info on this unit...

it sounds like a lot of bells and whistles to me.....

we see this kind of stuff out at the home shows
claiming its some "new technology" for lots of money
but it basically still uses salt.....to clean a filter....

wether that is the case here or not remains to be seen...


if it quacks like and duck,
and walks like a duck.....

untill I see some specs that tell me different......

I think its a duck..

 

[Dubldare]

Well, coming from a tankless wh expert that had no clue that there are pilotless, tank wh's (powervents); I'm not expecting much.



I have a customer who can use up to 15gpm in his master shower, and 10gpm at his tub, not to mention the other 4 bathrooms. He just replaced his 80gal, 75Kbtu powervent with another of the same.

Kinda hard to sell him 2~3 Takagi TM-1's (and have his gas meter replaced and gas lines repiped) when he's had something that works.

BTW, incomming water temp is 38° in winter, 45° in summer.




In my opinion, the assinine tankless debate goes hand in hand with limiting our water temps to 120°. It's much more cost effective to run hotter tank temps (140°) in conjuction with a mixing valve.

Yeah, $9,000+ for a few takagi's and repiping his gas, or $2,000 for a replacement. Won't find many tree-huggers up for that $$$$.

 

[Gary Slusser]

The "conditioner" is a carbon filter with PWT (physical water treatment) inside; the Beotron part. Carbon does nothing to prevent or remove hard water scale.

PWT, or MWT (magnetic water treatment) usually does not work but I've seen two make a white powdery substance appear wherever the water was allowed to dry; so there is something to it in some cases. Both of those units were electronic. Neither PWT or MWT are able to soften water. They also do not reduce or remove hardness from any water. Thereby they should never be compared to any ion exchange water softener. They are anti-scale and descaling devices, not softeners.

The lifesource filter is way overpriced for what it is; I've heard of plumbers charging as much as $2300.00 for it. Most of them don't know much about water treatment or water treatment equipment and have been 'sold' on selling it.

As to the tankless water heaters... I believe that more and more tankless heaters will be and should be sold. Hopefully they will be sized and installed correctly.

 

[GoingTankless]

water treatment for tankless and plumbing system

Gary, since your the water expert......i'm listening. What is it that you would recommend.

I would like to give my customers the best system I can. Any info would be appreciated.

 

[Rdtompki]

I'm just an average consumer, DIY'er who has been reading this thread. It seems to me that there is a great deal of generalization going on, "one size fits all" as it were.

Climate, water hardness, house layout, demand, economics will all play a role in a decision to replace a tank-type heater with tankless. A mild climate (and resulting warmer inlet water) will permit installation of a smaller tankless unit. Really hard water has got to be hard on any tankless WH or boiler, but how long does a tank-type heater last with 30-40 grains of hardness. I'm remodeling a master bathroom and installing a large whirlpool tub; couldn't increase the size of my WH in its current location, the garage is a long way from the bathroom. I elected to install a tankless to serve that end of the house.

Peak demand is certainly an issue, but if you're going to run a 15 gpm shower and fill a 10 gpm tub plus have some other bathroom demands you're going to need one huge tank or run out of HW in a heartbeat.

New construction would be the ideal time to consider tankless. The installation (labor) cost should be close to a wash and the additional hardware cost a)might be offset in the long run by some energy savings and b)might be offset by less frequent replacement. The energy savings will depend upon the locale's energy costs, but I believe there is an opportunity for savings in many areas of the country where costs are soaring.

I don't sell these things, I don't have stock in a tankless WH company. I would urge the plumbing professionals our there to not align yourselves with the HVAC guys who won't do a Manual J calculation because a 125K BTU/hour furnace is what they have been installing for 25 years or with the tile installer still doing hot mops when there are so many better ways to do a shower.

 

[GoingTankless]

Reliable issue

I know the question is how reliable are these units and truely on time will tell. As for the tankless sytems that Bosch makes they claim the life is 20 to 25 years. Since every parts is replaceable you never need to change out the whole unit just the failed part.

I have done service on units that are over 15 years old and they needed a filter screen changed and the air intake cleaned. That was it. He was the original owner. He has no complaints about the unit.

As for all the questions on the tankless what do all of you do with the tank type heaters. They also build up with deposits and their energy factor drops off as you use it. What do you do to service these systems? How often do you go back to the customer for maintenance? Does your customers do the maintenance?

Just wondering.......