Copper pipe toilet flange replacement

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Jadavis

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Bath remodel is slowly moving along. Appreciate the previous help immensly. I'm going to replace the sub floor, and would like to move the toilet flange about an inch or two over anyway (offset flange), but I'm wondering what the best way to do that might be? It's all copper (and brass?), and two of the screws are rusted so bad that I'm not sure they'll come out. I think I will need a new toilet flange either way. The clearance between the sub floor and the bottom of the joists on either side of the pipe is about as tight as it can be (3 1/2"). I'll have to notch the joist to accomodate the offset flange (and even for the hub on the flange connection).

Should I cut the 3" copper on the vertical below the joists, run 3" PVC up to the new flange, and connect it with a fernco banded coupler? Or cut it on the horizontal part, and add a long sweep PVC 90? Or would something else be better?

I'm leaning towards cutting it on the vertical, as it seems like that would be better to minimize the clog potential, but I'm not excited about having a transition of any sort for this reason. Re-using the existing flange might be possible (though the placement isn't ideal) if I'm just asking for trouble introduing a transition anywhere so close to the toilet.

What would you do if it were your bathroom?

toilet flange.jpg
Copper toilet pipe.jpg
 

Jadavis

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Has anyone tried these "push-in" flanges from Sioux Chief with a copper drain line?

edit: doing some searching of the site I've found that the push in flanges, particularly ones with an offset, are not recommended.

push in flange.jpg
 
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Reach4

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I don't remember anybody reporting they had a problem with the Push-Tite flanges. There are going to be people who suspected they might have had a problem and did not use them.

What is going on upstream of that flange on the copper pipe? I see what looks like some unshielded rubber couplings. How about a wider shot from a different angle?
 

Jadavis

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There's a PVC connection coming from a different (basement) bathroom tying into the 3" vent for this bathroom. That vent piping is tied in by the unshielded couplings you see, done before I bought the house. I'll get a wider shot of it this afternoon. Perhaps I'd be better off fixing that mess if/when I replace the toilet flange.
 

Michael Young

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Bath remodel is slowly moving along. Appreciate the previous help immensly. I'm going to replace the sub floor, and would like to move the toilet flange about an inch or two over anyway (offset flange), but I'm wondering what the best way to do that might be? It's all copper (and brass?), and two of the screws are rusted so bad that I'm not sure they'll come out. I think I will need a new toilet flange either way. The clearance between the sub floor and the bottom of the joists on either side of the pipe is about as tight as it can be (3 1/2"). I'll have to notch the joist to accomodate the offset flange (and even for the hub on the flange connection).

Should I cut the 3" copper on the vertical below the joists, run 3" PVC up to the new flange, and connect it with a fernco banded coupler? Or cut it on the horizontal part, and add a long sweep PVC 90? Or would something else be better?

I'm leaning towards cutting it on the vertical, as it seems like that would be better to minimize the clog potential, but I'm not excited about having a transition of any sort for this reason. Re-using the existing flange might be possible (though the placement isn't ideal) if I'm just asking for trouble introduing a transition anywhere so close to the toilet.

What would you do if it were your bathroom?

View attachment 81934View attachment 81935

I would want to see a little further down-stream. I see there is a sanitary tee turned upside down. Is that cast iron down there? how is the copper connected to the rest of the system?

you can order a heavy-duty no-hub band that is designed to transition from 3" copper to 3" PVC. The diameter is NOT THE SAME. So if you use a 3" no-hub band, the rubber will pinch in on itself and possibly leak. just order the transition band that you need. I use heavy duty (with two bands on each side). The easy fix. Cut it. Use a transition band. Install a 3" long sweep 90. Glue in a new riser and glue in a new toilet flange. on the toilet flange THERE ARE SIX SCREW HOLES FOR A REASON. make sure you use all six screw holes and secure the new flange securely to the floor. The flange should sit firmly to the FINISHED FLOOR. I see sub-floor. So you might need to use spacers to raised the flange to your finished floor level. If it sits too low. good chance it will leak. if it sits too high good chance it will wobble.
 

Jadavis

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crawl space drainage.jpg
crawl space drainage2.jpg


Couple more views of the downstream drain lines. There's no cast iron. The copper lines go down the back cinder block wall, where they pick up a 3/4 basement bath and run along the basement floor to the ejector pit pump. My guess is that a previous owner had trouble with the basement bath drains, and added the 3" PVC line to tie into the vent in the bathroom I'm working on.

vent santee proposed.jpg


I think that they reduced it to 2" before tying it in because they didn't have enough height to add a 3" santee? edit: and they really didn't even have enough room to do this 2" x 3" santee the proper way (with banded transition couplers)

toilet wye proposed.jpg


If I don't re-do everything, I may just cut the 3" pipe before that existing vertical santee and insert this wye being held up, for the new toilet flange and to give me a cleanout. I'll use a heavy duty fernco banded coupler made for a PVC to copper transition.
 
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Jadavis

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A previous thread

Previous thread of mine where I discuss and show the venting and drain lines for this bathroom from the above the floor perspective, and how I ran a new shower drain so that it didn't flow to the ejector pit pump. I'd have liked to have been able to do that with the lav and toilet too, but I didn't want to cut thru and weaken the joists, so I'll let those fixtures flow down to the pit.
 

Michael Young

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View attachment 81962View attachment 81963

Couple more views of the downstream drain lines. There's no cast iron. The copper lines go down the back cinder block wall, where they pick up a 3/4 basement bath and run along the basement floor to the ejector pit pump. My guess is that a previous owner had trouble with the basement bath drains, and added the 3" PVC line to tie into the vent in the bathroom I'm working on.

View attachment 81964

I think that they reduced it to 2" before tying it in because they didn't have enough height to add a 3" santee? edit: and they really didn't even have enough room to do this 2" x 3" santee the proper way (with banded transition couplers)

View attachment 81965

If I don't re-do everything, I may just cut the 3" pipe before that existing vertical santee and insert this wye being held up, for the new toilet flange and to give me a cleanout. I'll use a heavy duty fernco banded coupler made for a PVC to copper transition.

looks a little like a mess. I like your idea using the combination. What sort of room do you have under there. I think cleanouts are great, but you don't have to install a cleanout. The toilet flange is your cleanout access. just pull the toilet. If there's room to work, sure. we love cleanouts. But if a plumber (or you) will have to belly-crawl with a sewer machine, don't waste the effort. Most plumbers will just charge you to pull the toilet to make-access before they drag a sewer machine through a tight crawlspace.

If I owned the property, I would probably remove all the old copper, sell it for scrap metal. Use the scrap metal money to buy all my fittings to go back and re-plumb the whole damn thing. Unless I was feeling like a lazy slug. Lazy slug version of me would cut the vertical and replace only the flange and a small piece of pipe to connect to the existing. Right now, you would get lazy-slug plumber ;-)
 

Michael Young

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View attachment 81962View attachment 81963

Couple more views of the downstream drain lines. There's no cast iron. The copper lines go down the back cinder block wall, where they pick up a 3/4 basement bath and run along the basement floor to the ejector pit pump. My guess is that a previous owner had trouble with the basement bath drains, and added the 3" PVC line to tie into the vent in the bathroom I'm working on.

View attachment 81964

I think that they reduced it to 2" before tying it in because they didn't have enough height to add a 3" santee? edit: and they really didn't even have enough room to do this 2" x 3" santee the proper way (with banded transition couplers)

View attachment 81965

If I don't re-do everything, I may just cut the 3" pipe before that existing vertical santee and insert this wye being held up, for the new toilet flange and to give me a cleanout. I'll use a heavy duty fernco banded coupler made for a PVC to copper transition.

Wait wait wait. Dafuq. is that duct tape

1647383090696.png
 

Jadavis

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The crawl space is relatively roomy and is dry, but you guys are absolutely right...no one (myself included) is going to want to go in there and open that plug with the pipe full, especially when there's a better option to pull the toilet and stay relatively clean. So I'll forget about the cleanout.

I hear you @Michael Young on the replacement of everything. I too had the "lazy" thought to just "cut the vertical (toilet drain) and replace only the flange and a small piece of pipe to connect to the existing". I still might do that. The opportunity to replace the rest of the copper drains with everything opened up will probably never present itself to me again though. It's not really as complicated as the pics make it look- just a lav and toilet (no shower drain now to worry about, even) and a vent from another bath tied in. Take me a couple of hours probably.

The lack of height really has me spooked though...


plumbing height.jpg



And yes, there was about a 2" piece of duct tape there on that unbanded coupling. I tore it off. It was hiding a split in the rubber. Perhaps hiding the split for an inspection (by the previous homeowner, or for his "benefit")? Far as I can tell it never leaked, but I haven't used the bathroom since I bought the house years ago, and the split is probably way worse now.

There is only 8 inches from the top of the copper drain pipe to the bottom of the joists. That 3" vent pipe going up is sandwiched between two joists as well, so I can't move around the framing to get more access to it or for it.

That 8 inches of vertical space is not nearly enough even to put a new PVC 3" santee on its back, with another on top of it (similar to what's there already). Much less a long turn wye or a combo wye. I really don't know how to handle this. There's no decent option to run the vent connection from the other bath elsewhere, either. Something is in the way thru every currently open wall section I thought about taking it through. I could start opening up other walls looking for a clear run for it (there's a closet adjacent) but perhaps one of you guys has a better solution?
 

Jadavis

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Could a 2" vent serve both bathrooms? I need to add up fixture units and find the right IPC table. Maybe I could fit a santee on its back and a vertical street santee if everything going up is just 2" instead of 3". The main stack on the other side of the house is 3", if that matters.

Edit: If I'm reading this table right, I can only have 10 fixture units before a vent larger than 2" is required. Dang. But would this be a "horizontal circuit vent"? A 2" vent is allowed for up to 30 fixture units if it is not.

1647444382730.png
 
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Michael Young

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The crawl space is relatively roomy and is dry, but you guys are absolutely right...no one (myself included) is going to want to go in there and open that plug with the pipe full, especially when there's a better option to pull the toilet and stay relatively clean. So I'll forget about the cleanout.

I hear you @Michael Young on the replacement of everything. I too had the "lazy" thought to just "cut the vertical (toilet drain) and replace only the flange and a small piece of pipe to connect to the existing". I still might do that. The opportunity to replace the rest of the copper drains with everything opened up will probably never present itself to me again though. It's not really as complicated as the pics make it look- just a lav and toilet (no shower drain now to worry about, even) and a vent from another bath tied in. Take me a couple of hours probably.

The lack of height really has me spooked though...


View attachment 82040


And yes, there was about a 2" piece of duct tape there on that unbanded coupling. I tore it off. It was hiding a split in the rubber. Perhaps hiding the split for an inspection (by the previous homeowner, or for his "benefit")? Far as I can tell it never leaked, but I haven't used the bathroom since I bought the house years ago, and the split is probably way worse now.

There is only 8 inches from the top of the copper drain pipe to the bottom of the joists. That 3" vent pipe going up is sandwiched between two joists as well, so I can't move around the framing to get more access to it or for it.

That 8 inches of vertical space is not nearly enough even to put a new PVC 3" santee on its back, with another on top of it (similar to what's there already). Much less a long turn wye or a combo wye. I really don't know how to handle this. There's no decent option to run the vent connection from the other bath elsewhere, either. Something is in the way thru every currently open wall section I thought about taking it through. I could start opening up other walls looking for a clear run for it (there's a closet adjacent) but perhaps one of you guys has a better solution?

The more I look at this, the more it looks like you're getting in your own way. It may be easier just to cut it all out and re-pipe the entire area. I'm really not a fan of the upside-down tee; the split rubber seal the tight space you're trying to fit everything into.
 

Jeff H Young

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something is very wrong under that house. the copper might be ok but the PVC is wrong
 

Jadavis

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Took you guys' advice and cut out nearly all the copper drain piping in the crawl. Must've been 50 lbs worth. Found a way to run the vent for the other bath up a wall in 2" PVC (left side of first image) and tied it in to the 3" vent in the attic (second pic) going skyward from the combo TY showing here. Appreciate the counsel and motivation. Open to any further feedback of course.

updated bath plumbing.jpg

updated bath plumbing attic.jpg
 
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