Considering a CSV but I have a yard hydrant at the well.

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Hardyh

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Here is our setup, I got some help here last year regarding a recurring dry pump situation (thank you very much!). Everything worked great over the winter but I think that our combined houses water use (with little gardens, etc) in the summer is still affecting the system.
Here is an image of the setup:
well-setup.jpg

We drop pressure to 10-15PSI occasionally, sometimes when I am using water at the main house and I assume sometimes when the upper house is using water or maybe if there is an overlap in usage. I am hoping to install a CSV to sort this out but with the placement of our well between the two houses and a yard hydrant right at the well is a CSV even an option? The well is not housed (it's out in the open) so is there a way I can install the CSV without weather or freezing affecting it? Can these valves be buried or do I need to maintain easy access for maintenance or testing? Any other suggestions? We are hoping to switch the upper house to a passively filled sistern style rather than drawing directly from the well but that wouldn't happen until after the summer.
 

Hardyh

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Just to add, I am pretty sure the pressure drop is primarily the result of me using the yard hydrant to fill a pond overnight - I have it on a timer and it only comes on for about 4 minutes at a time spread out at 1 hr intervals. But this is the only major change between the winter (when we didn't have a single issue) and now. I have tried throttling the hydrant to reduce the pressure, it kind of works (no issues for several days). But it still seems a bit hit and miss as in there is still the occasional pressure drop; often overnight but even (rare but still happens) during the day when the hydrant isn't even being used.
 

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If the Cycle Sensor is not shutting the pump off and saying DRY, the well still has water in it. You didn't say what size pump you have? But if is just a 5 or 7 GPM pump, you maybe just using more water than that, which will cause low pressure. The cistern is a good idea and would solve a lot of problems, but you may just need a larger well pump. Duplicate the low pressure scenario and watch the pressure and Cycle Sensor. If the pump is drawing max amps, you still have water in the well and the pump is doing all it can. A CSV can only help if the pump/well/cistern can supply enough water to start with.
 

Hardyh

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The pump is a 3/4 5GPM. The cycle sensor does shut the pump off when this happens, I have the reset time set one hour. The original installer noted the well yielded 2GPM . Would a CSV still be able to work with this?
 

Bannerman

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hoping to switch the upper house to a passively filled sistern style rather than drawing directly from the well
Suggest locating the cistern directly at the wellhead, so the cistern will supply both homes and the yard hydrant.

With 2 GPM recovery rate, 24 hrs X 60 min/hr = 1440 minutes/day X 2 GPM = 2880 gallons per day possible from your well.

A Dole valve could be added to the well pump that is utilized to fill the cistern which will then limit the cistern fill rate to 2 GPM or less. If a float switch is installed within the cistern, the switch will shut off the pump once the cistern is filled, and will activate the pump once the water level has fallen to a specific level.

A submersible pump installed within the cistern, or a jet pump beside the cistern, can then be equipped with a CSV to supply all the water needed to both homes and the hydrant when the cistern is sufficiently sized to satisfy your daily requirements.
 

Hardyh

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Suggest locating the cistern directly at the wellhead, so the cistern will supply both homes and the yard hydrant.

With 2 GPM recovery rate, 24 hrs X 60 min/hr = 1440 minutes/day X 2 GPM = 2880 gallons per day possible from your well.

A Dole valve could be added to the well pump that is utilized to fill the cistern which will then limit the cistern fill rate to 2 GPM or less. If a float switch is installed within the cistern, the switch will shut off the pump once the cistern is filled, and will activate the pump once the water level has fallen to a specific level.

A submersible pump installed within the cistern, or a jet pump beside the cistern, can then be equipped with a CSV to supply all the water needed to both homes and the hydrant when the cistern is sufficiently sized to satisfy your daily requirements.
Thank you, we already have a 2500 gal tank up at the second house - it just isn't tied into the system right now. This used to be used for water delivery before we ran a water line so we could share the well. It would be a fair bit more work to bury it somewhere close to the well since it is already (mostly) winterized where it sits. Would there be that much of a benefit to moving the tank down to the well, compared with utilizing it where it already is? I could also dig out the connections at the well, put a CSV there and tie in the hydrant after this valve it's just a matter of preventing freezing and still having access to the valve.
 

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If you switch to using a cistern instead of straight from the well, you can store the 2500 gallons over time, and you won't run out of water until that tank is empty. You won't need a pressure tank or a CSV on the well pump if you can run wires from a float switch in the cistern to the well pump controller and use a 2 GPM Dole valve.

LOW YIELD WELL_SUB_PK1A.jpg


If you cannot run wires, then you will need an adjustable electric valve in the cistern to open and close as needed, and the well pump will need a Cycle Stop Valve, pressure tank, and pressure switch. Adjust the electric valve to about 2 GPM, and the CSV will restrict the well pump to 2 GPM as well. I would also use a Cycle Sensor to protect the well pump from running dry, in case the electric valve is not adjusted enough.

Either way the booster pump in the cistern being controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve can now supply 2500 gallons at any flow rate needed. You will just have to pipe from the cistern to both houses and the hydrant. The hydrant as is can still be used from the well if needed, but you only have 2 GPM unless you plumb the hydrant to the booster pump in the cistern.

LOW YIELD WELL_and storage with two PK1A.jpg
 

Hardyh

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And what is the common method for installing a CSV when the well is outdoors without a well house and all connections are buried about 3ft down? We don't have the worst winters but it is Canada so frost is an issue from November to April.
 

JoeJee

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I dug down to the pit less adapter, cleaned up the pipe and then installed the CSV. The two capped pvc lines are for the hydrant and the other for the shop. Then used a few boxes to cover and bury. Still have access and hasn’t frozen.

Edit: I kept pressure tank and switch inside the house.
 

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Valveman

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And what is the common method for installing a CSV when the well is outdoors without a well house and all connections are buried about 3ft down? We don't have the worst winters but it is Canada so frost is an issue from November to April.
Lots of ways like JoeJee said, But we also make one that fits inside the well casing when it is too deep to bury.
 

Bannerman

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Would there be that much of a benefit to moving the tank down to the well, compared with utilizing it where it already is?
With the cistern supplying only the upper home, the flow rate to the lower home and yard hydrant will be limited to 2 GPM + the limited amount of water that is stored within the well casing above the pump. While the cistern at the upper house is being filled @ 2 GPM, then the lower home will be forced to rely on only the limited amount of water that is stored within the well which may be depleted fairly rapidly

An alternative to moving the existing cistern would be to install a 2nd cistern located at the lower home to supply that home and the yard hydrant. For simplicity and to prevent over pumping the well, each cistern fill rate could be limited to 1 GPM each.

It would be a fair bit more work to bury it somewhere close to the well since it is already (mostly) winterized where it sits.

Valveman mentioned piping a new line between the cistern down to the lower home. Since that would involve trenching in a new pipe at least 3' deep for 200' or possibly 300 feet, not certain if moving the cistern would be more work.

If an appropriate well house enclosure was built at the well head, then the cistern, pressure tank, pressure switch and CSV could all be located there.
 
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