Connecting sink drain to cement pipe

[Tooltalk]

Hey everyone,

I would like to build a wet bar/kitchenette in the basement of our 70-year-old house in Ontario, Canada. The main sewer pipe for the house runs right under the area where I want to install the sink, so I'm hoping it will be fairly easy. I broke open the concrete slab to get a look at the sewer pipe and was surprised to find what I believe to be an asbestos cement pipe with an outside diameter of about 4.75". All the sewer pipes above the slab are cast iron, so that's what I was expecting to find under the slab.

If it is asbestos, any suggestions on cutting it? I do have a diamond blade for my angle grinder and can position a hose to keep everything wet while I'm cutting.

Anything else I should be concerned about and are there any suggestions for the parts required to connect a sink drain to this pipe?

Thanks very much. Here's a couple pics. The pic with the ruler makes it look like pipe is 4" or less, but I measured with calipers and OD is just over 4-3/4".

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

In most jurisdictions, if not all, concrete pipe is not allowed to be installed within the footprint of a building. Did someone build an addition and cover the existing sewer? I've encountered it several times in that scenario and we've always replaced it with proper approved ABS,PVC or Cast Iron. Concrete pipe is leaky to start with, prone to failure by cracking and collapsing. Don't leave it installed under your home.

However... You're measurement of it being only 4" Outside diameter suggests that that concrete pipe isn't a sanitary drain at all.. Its likely a groundwater drain.

 

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[Tooltalk]

Thanks for your reply. The house was built in the 50s and my family moved here in 68. There has never been an addition or any changes to the original footprint. The above-slab cast iron drain pipes and clean out are about 10 feet away from the hole I made to expose the cement pipe, which runs roughly perpendicular to the clean out. Unless I'm imagining things I can hear water running through the pipe and can feel it warm up when I run hot water in the tub upstairs. Is it possible they did things differently in the 50s?

I looked up dimensions for asbestos cement pipe online and it says 4" pipe has an OD of 4.8" which is basically what I'm measuring with some calipers. The cast iron pipe above ground is 3".

I hear what you're saying about replacing it, but it's been there for 70 years and seems fine. Is it really necessary to bust up the whole basement to replace it?

Thanks.

 

[Tooltalk]

I think I found the parts I need to tap into the concrete pipe. Fernco makes a 1051-44RC, which is a rigid coupling with a full stainless band around it to connect Asbestos Cement to Plastic. This is available locally for about $53CAD. They also make 1051-44 flexible coupling which is about $14. See pics of each below. I like the idea of a rigid connection to I'm inclined to spend the extra money.

I also read this in a youtube comment responding to someone who used the flexible connector underground: "For under slab, 'No-Hub' stainless sleeved couplers is what is required by code, all over Canada and the USA. The coupler you used is not meant for below slab. It should only be used in above ground, unfinished areas that are easily accessible."

Makes sense to me, but can anyone confirm that?

Thanks.

1051-44RC

1051-44

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

I've never worked with that type of concrete asbestos pipe. I know in my jurisdiction it could only be allowed to remain if it was legal at the time of installation and doesn't create a dangerous situation. So lets say that it was legal and therefore grandfathered in...

I would have originally recomended cutting concrete with an angle grinder.. But since its asbestos you absolutely should not touch it with any power tool or anything that will create dust particles. The best tool would likely be a Snap/Soil pipe cutter which has a chain with sharpish points that Cleave the concrete pipe. To reduce the risk of creating asbestos dust I would recommend keeping the pipe wet and wearing a proper resperator. You will need to cut a large enough section to insert a properly sloping Cast iron Wye/1/8th bend with proper Mission bands which may be hard to locate for that size pipe.

In the time I got dstracted, it appears you found the corrcect bands. I would only use the fully jacketed version to prevent any sagging of the fitting. But proper bedding of the pipe will ensure that as well.

 

[Tooltalk]

You will need to cut a large enough section to insert a properly sloping Cast iron Wye/1/8th bend...

Thanks very much for your response. Why would you use a cast iron wye instead of ABS? More rigidity? I was planning to use a 4x4x2 ABS wye with a 2" elbow like below, and then transition to the 1-1/2" drain pipe with a cheater vent.

I called the local rental houses yesterday and no one rents a snap cutter. They didn't even seem to know what I was talking about, which surprised me. So that may not be an option.

 

[Jeff H Young]

that measurement looks no where near 4 3/4 inches? you might ask supply house for soil pipe cutter ? ratchet cutter ratchet snaps .
are you positive that is connected to sewer? I'd test it to be sure its part of DWV system

 

[Tooltalk]

that measurement looks no where near 4 3/4 inches? you might ask supply house for soil pipe cutter ? ratchet cutter ratchet snaps .
are you positive that is connected to sewer? Id test it to be sure its part of dwv system

It's amazing how cameras can distort things isn't it, but I can assure you it's 4-3/4. The two pics below show the calipers on the widest part of the pipe and then moved up to the ruler. It looks weird, but there is no trickery going on ;-)

As I mentioned above, it's definitely the drain pipe. When I run the hot water in the tub upstairs the concrete pipe gets warm. I can feel it and can measure the temperature rise with an infrared thermometer.

I'll visit a couple rental places and show them a picture of a soil pipe cutter. Maybe I didn't describe it properly on the phone.

 

[John Gayewski]

I'm not sure cast iron snappers (that's what we call them) will cut that. Especially since you'd be attempting to cut out a middle section with only fixed pipe above and below. I'd fear a bad crack, or just a crush, but maybe I'm wrong. The first cut/ crush would be fine, but at some point your going to need two clean square cuts.

I'm afraid at some point there's no getting around a power cutting wheel of some kind. But it's worth a try with the snappers. I could be way off.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Why would you use a cast iron wye instead of ABS? More rigidity?

A cast iron fitting has no hubs and will fit into a more compact space, But that is the only reason and should have mentioned that. An ABS fitting just will require a larger opening in the concrete floor to work in. But like mentioned, the photo could be deceiveing how much room you have to work in.

This is my favorite type of snap / soil / cast iron cutter to use. It is what was used to cut regular concrete sewer pipe back in the day.. Again tho, I've never dealt with asbestos reinforced concrete pipe. You always want the "teeth" at the hinge point to be as close together as possible when you make your cut. If they get too far apart, the material has a tendency to fracture at odd angles. I would suggest testing your first cut somewhere in the middle of where you want to cut rather on where you Need to cut just in case it doesn't work.

 

[Tooltalk]

Thanks for the info about cast iron fittings. I'll give it some thought, but I'm more familiar with ABS and it's readily available at many stores. I've never even seen new cast fittings for sale, so I'm having a bit of trouble picturing how everything would fit together. Space is bit tight, but either way I will have to open up the floor more to do this job. I started with a small hole to make sure I was in the right spot and to see what I was dealing with.

I called one of the rental places again and they can get the Rigid soil pipe cutter below, but they need 3 or 4 days notice because it's at another location. At least I know I can get one when I'm ready to tackle this job. I found a video on YouTube last night of guys using a snap cutter like this to cut this pipe, which is also known as Transite pipe. The cutter seemed to work really well for them.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Did they use that style ratchet cutter? It applies a significant lateral force as the handle is the ratchet, but probably won't be a problem.. same still applies about keeping the teeth as close together as possible..

 

[Tooltalk]

Did they use that style ratchet cutter? It applies a significant lateral force as the handle is the ratchet, but probably won't be a problem.. same still applies about keeping the teeth as close together as possible..

I had to look at video again. Looks like a ratchet cutter similar to one pictured below. I think the ratchet moves perpendicular to pipe instead of parallel like the one above. Not sure which is better.

Here's the video if you want to check it out. The best view of cutter starts around 8:20.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Same action as the one I posted. Very easy, low torque on the chain laterally against the pipe.

Now that I saw what they pulled out in that video I have seen some of that pipe come out of a jobsite that we had to get rid of.. Total PITA as a business..

I don't think you need to rotate the chain over the material like they were doing.. but maybe that scores the pipe and might line up the chain better? Seems like a way to create more dust. If I ever have to remove asbestos, I make sure to keep it wet to ensure no dust is created. But all of our jobsites get tested prior to work and abatement teams come in prior to start so we never really have to touch it professionally.

 

[Tooltalk]

Was at Home Depot today and they have snap cutter below in stock to rent. So I have a couple options now.

You said earlier to "keep the teeth as close together as possible". After seeing the cutter I'm not sure what you mean. Do mean the two jaws where the chain ends connect?

 

[Jeff H Young]

just so you know when you snap pipe in a trench both sides are held tightly with dirt and a lot of time it breaks.
Asbestos isnt good to breath mesotheloma (im sure spelled wrong) not good its cancer , a lot of legalitys involved with it so be careful and aware. its your res[ponceability .
I guess rental company didnt know the name I call it by all the names mentioned glad you found it

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

There is a fixed end of the chain and the rest of it hangs down. Each link has those lugs/protrusions which allow the chain to wrap around the pipe and then the lugs are held in place on the other side by inserts. The distance between the fixed end and the adjustable end want to be as close together when you ratchet the assembly and apply enough pressure to fracture the pipe. Too far away and the fracture can wander off laterally.