Burnham series 2 Heat exchanger

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Heyjoe

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It has nothing to do with the EPDM tubing, even if it happened to be the case that the tubing was failing.

The things that cause pressure to rise over time (not temperature) are seepage at the pressure reducging valve, or leaks from the heat exchanger inside the water heater. If either of those is the problem, with isolaing valves it's possible to sort out which is the culprit.

The things that cause excessive pressure rise with temperature are undersized expansion tank, or improperly charged expansion tank. To deal with that:

Try pumping air into the tank until the air pressure reads 15-20 psi. The water pressure on the system should rise accordingly. Bleed the water pressure back down to 12 psi, then test the air pressure with a tire gauge. If it's 12 psi, pump it back up to 15-20 psi. If the system pressure doesn't change, bleed the air back down to 15 psi. If the system pressure rises, bleed water out of the system until it hits 12 psi. Repeat. When pumping air into the tank no longer changes the system pressure, it will have the maximum possible expansion room- so bleed air until the air pressure down to about 1-2 psi above the (cold) system pressure.


It has nothing to do with the EPDM tubing, even if it happened to be the case that the tubing was failing.

The things that cause pressure to rise over time (not temperature) are seepage at the pressure reducging valve, or leaks from the heat exchanger inside the water heater. If either of those is the problem, with isolaing valves it's possible to sort out which is the culprit.

The things that cause excessive pressure rise with temperature are undersized expansion tank, or improperly charged expansion tank. To deal with that:

Try pumping air into the tank until the air pressure reads 15-20 psi. The water pressure on the system should rise accordingly. Bleed the water pressure back down to 12 psi,
then test the air pressure with a tire gauge. If it's 12 psi, pump it back up to 15-20 psi. If the system pressure doesn't change, bleed the air back down to 15 psi. If the system pressure rises, bleed water out of the system until it hits 12 psi. Repeat. When pumping air into the tank no longer changes the system pressure, it will have the maximum possible expansion room- so bleed air until the air pressure down to about 1-2 psi above the (cold) system pressure.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I am beginning to think that the expansion tank is to small. Also, I think the tridicator gauge is off 10 pounds on the pressure side. I am going to drain the boiler, replace the gauge and switch the #30 tank for a #60 tank when I get a kit for the spirovent. I would like to get a new circulation pump to have on hand, but can’t seem to find the same one. Taco model 0011-f2
 

Fitter30

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The problem with the tank it has to be on the suction side of the main boiler pump, on the discharge it doesn't work. Move both air eliminat or and ex tank pipe them both close to the pump. Take some pics of the boiler,pumps and piping. Cast iron boilers minimum water temp 140* i like 150* radiate heat water temp runs 5-10* over thermostat set point. So piping is critical.
 

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Why do you think it needs a new pump?

If replacing the pump, an ECM "smart" pump that has a flow/head range that covers that of the -0011 (such as the VT3425) would use dramatically less power, and allow finer tweaking of the system performance. But if the pump is currently working there isn't much point to changing it.

If the gauge on the boiler may be off by 10lbs or more that's easy to verify using a cheap hose connection type pressure gauge at some purge or drain valve port on the boiler or nearby plumbing before taking the time & trouble to drain the boiler and swap out the tridicator.
 

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Why do you think it needs a new pump?

If replacing the pump, an ECM "smart" pump that has a flow/head range that covers that of the -0011 (such as the VT3425) would use dramatically less power, and allow finer tweaking of the system performance. But if the pump is currently working there isn't much point to changing it.

If the gauge on the boiler may be off by 10lbs or more that's easy to verify using a cheap hose connection type pressure gauge at some purge or drain valve port on the boiler or nearby plumbing before taking the time & trouble to drain the boiler and swap out the tridicator.
I was just curious, if my 25 year old pump went out what it was going to cost ($325.00)and where I could find one. I looked for one on-line,but found none. Now I know the oo12-f2 is still available and that the “f2” has something to do with the manufacturers date or something like that.The new taco pump is 0012-f4. I wanted the same pump so the flangers would line up, so replacement required no pipe cutting.

I though I had one those hose connection gauges somewhere. I use it years ago when I wanted to know water pressure.But I looked high and low and have no idea where I stored it, should have been in my plumbing box.

The new relief valve is set at 30psi, so when I was foolin’ with boiler and the pressure started to get close to 30 I quickly lower the thermostat to shut it down. Yesterday I thought that I would leave it run and see what the boiler pressure gauge said when it opened.It got to 40Psi and it started to drip.So, I am ASSUMING it is correct.So every time I filled the system using the PRV by-pass to 12, I was really filling it to 22psi. Which would account for extra water. At least that is my latest brainstorming idea for high pressure. I picked up a #60 tank.
 
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Heyjoe

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At 5000' you would only need to derate to 85-90% of the labeled DOE output, maybe less (depending on where Burnham's literature starts the derating.)

Seeing how many minutes it takes to burn through a cubic foot of gas isn't going to tell you anything about your heat load. My understanding is that many local gas-grids in Colorado adjust the mixture of gases in the fuel to a somewhat lower BTU content so that equipment designed for lower altitudes will always work without modifying the equipment, which may be where the 161K label came from(?).

I really thought for awhile I would soon need a new boiler.So I called three plumbers and so far I received two bids, both are for Burnham boilers one was a Alpine wall or floor mount the other bid just said Burnham. Both bids were for 150000 btu boilers and I am waiting for the third.

You said I probably need 96000 btu. The house is 2x6 construction with stucco. The insulation was blown in.There I are 35 windows 11 face north and 19 face south. The are double paned with gas.When the sun shines during the day there is no need for heat.The boiler only runs at night, but that could be a draw back for radiant flooring because most of the floor heat is lost during the day. It doesn’t heat up very fast.I installed programable thermostats so I could start the heating before the thermostats called for heat.I remember seeing a house that had an outside thermostat that would turn on the heat at a certain outside temperature.







Why on EARTH would you use something as ridiculous as "...50 btu per sq.foot..."?

What is your local 99% outside design temp (approximately)? Most locations in CO at or near 5000' have design temps in low to mid positive single digits F. But to keep it simple let's assume 0F, a design temp where I have more experience.

A typical tight 2x4 framed insulated house with clear glass double-panes would come in under 20 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F outside many would be around 15 BTU/hr per foot.

A tight 2x6/R20 house without insulating sheathing would come in around 10-12 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F.

Bigger houses usually have more efficient shapes, and lower BTU/ft^2 ratios.

Is this a completely UN-insulated house with steel sash single panes or something?

All BTU per square foot rules of thumb suck, and cannot be used for accurately sizing the equipment, but some rules of thumb suck worse than others. 50 BTU per square foot is almost guaranteed to come in 3x or more oversized. While ludicrous oversizing factors don't hurt efficiency for hot air furnaces (it only hurts comfort) it's a significant efficiency hit for a cast iron boiler.

ASHRAE recommends sizing the boiler output to 1.4x the load at the 99% outside design temp, so if it's a 2x6/R20 type 3000' house the design load is likely to be around (or less than) 48,000 BTU/hr @ 0F, and the "right sized" boiler for the heat load would have an output of 1.4 x 48,000 BTU/hr= 67,200 BTU/hr. At 82% efficiency that would be an input of about 82,000 BTU/hr, so in the Burnham Series 2 lineup you'd be looking at the 204 (DOE output of 96K at sea level or about 82-85K derated for altitude.)

Correlating fuel use to heating degree days is a pretty good model for estimating heat loads. It's not perfect, but it's a measurement (however crude), and way better than a rule of thumb!
 

Heyjoe

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At 5000' you would only need to derate to 85-90% of the labeled DOE output, maybe less (depending on where Burnham's literature starts the derating.)

Seeing how many minutes it takes to burn through a cubic foot of gas isn't going to tell you anything about your heat load. My understanding is that many local gas-grids in Colorado adjust the mixture of gases in the fuel to a somewhat lower BTU content so that equipment designed for lower altitudes will always work without modifying the equipment, which may be where the 161K label came from(?).




Why on EARTH would you use something as ridiculous as "...50 btu per sq.foot..."?

What is your local 99% outside design temp (approximately)? Most locations in CO at or near 5000' have design temps in low to mid positive single digits F. But to keep it simple let's assume 0F, a design temp where I have more experience.

A typical tight 2x4 framed insulated house with clear glass double-panes would come in under 20 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F outside many would be around 15 BTU/hr per foot.

A tight 2x6/R20 house without insulating sheathing would come in around 10-12 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F.

Bigger houses usually have more efficient shapes, and lower BTU/ft^2 ratios.

Is this a completely UN-insulated house with steel sash single panes or something?

All BTU per square foot rules of thumb suck, and cannot be used for accurately sizing the equipment, but some rules of thumb suck worse than others. 50 BTU per square foot is almost guaranteed to come in 3x or more oversized. While ludicrous oversizing factors don't hurt efficiency for hot air furnaces (it only hurts comfort) it's a significant efficiency hit for a cast iron boiler.

ASHRAE recommends sizing the boiler output to 1.4x the load at the 99% outside design temp, so if it's a 2x6/R20 type 3000' house the design load is likely to be around (or less than) 48,000 BTU/hr @ 0F, and the "right sized" boiler for the heat load would have an output of 1.4 x 48,000 BTU/hr= 67,200 BTU/hr. At 82% efficiency that would be an input of about 82,000 BTU/hr, so in the Burnham Series 2 lineup you'd be looking at the 204 (DOE output of 96K at sea level or about 82-85K derated for altitude.)

Correlating fuel use to heating degree days is a pretty good model for estimating heat loads. It's not perfect, but it's a measurement (however crude), and way better than a rule of thumb!
 

Heyjoe

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At 5000' you would only need to derate to 85-90% of the labeled DOE output, maybe less (depending on where Burnham's literature starts the derating.)

Seeing how many minutes it takes to burn through a cubic foot of gas isn't going to tell you anything about your heat load. My understanding is that many local gas-grids in Colorado adjust the mixture of gases in the fuel to a somewhat lower BTU content so that equipment designed for lower altitudes will always work without modifying the equipment, which may be where the 161K label came from(?).




Why on EARTH would you use something as ridiculous as "...50 btu per sq.foot..."?

What is your local 99% outside design temp (approximately)? Most locations in CO at or near 5000' have design temps in low to mid positive single digits F. But to keep it simple let's assume 0F, a design temp where I have more experience.

A typical tight 2x4 framed insulated house with clear glass double-panes would come in under 20 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F outside many would be around 15 BTU/hr per foot.

A tight 2x6/R20 house without insulating sheathing would come in around 10-12 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F.

Bigger houses usually have more efficient shapes, and lower BTU/ft^2 ratios.

Is this a completely UN-insulated house with steel sash single panes or something?

All BTU per square foot rules of thumb suck, and cannot be used for accurately sizing the equipment, but some rules of thumb suck worse than others. 50 BTU per square foot is almost guaranteed to come in 3x or more oversized. While ludicrous oversizing factors don't hurt efficiency for hot air furnaces (it only hurts comfort) it's a significant efficiency hit for a cast iron boiler.

ASHRAE recommends sizing the boiler output to 1.4x the load at the 99% outside design temp, so if it's a 2x6/R20 type 3000' house the design load is likely to be around (or less than) 48,000 BTU/hr @ 0F, and the "right sized" boiler for the heat load would have an output of 1.4 x 48,000 BTU/hr= 67,200 BTU/hr. At 82% efficiency that would be an input of about 82,000 BTU/hr, so in the Burnham Series 2 lineup you'd be looking at the 204 (DOE output of 96K at sea level or about 82-85K derated for altitude.)

Correlating fuel use to heating degree days is a pretty good model for estimating heat loads. It's not perfect, but it's a measurement (however crude), and way better than a rule of thumb!

You seem to be saying that I need a 96000 btu boiler.I really thought the boiler was going out, so I asked three plumbing companies for bids. I got back two so far. Both were for Burnham 150000. Btu boilers.
The house is 2x6 construction with stucco. The insulation is blown in the walls and attic. The house has 30 windows that are double paned with gas. The long sides of the house face north and south,11 windows face north and 19 face south. When the sun shines the boiler never come on during the day.I have programmable thermostats so I can program them to on before the sun sets, mainly for the months of November thru February.
The nice thing about the large boiler and piping is that it’s in a 24x36 garage/wood shop that is never to cold to work in. So, to me it not wasted heat.The garage door is well insulated.
 
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Heyjoe

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At 5000' you would only need to derate to 85-90% of the labeled DOE output, maybe less (depending on where Burnham's literature starts the derating.)

Seeing how many minutes it takes to burn through a cubic foot of gas isn't going to tell you anything about your heat load. My understanding is that many local gas-grids in Colorado adjust the mixture of gases in the fuel to a somewhat lower BTU content so that equipment designed for lower altitudes will always work without modifying the equipment, which may be where the 161K label came from(?).




Why on EARTH would you use something as ridiculous as "...50 btu per sq.foot..."?

What is your local 99% outside design temp (approximately)? Most locations in CO at or near 5000' have design temps in low to mid positive single digits F. But to keep it simple let's assume 0F, a design temp where I have more experience.

A typical tight 2x4 framed insulated house with clear glass double-panes would come in under 20 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F outside many would be around 15 BTU/hr per foot.

A tight 2x6/R20 house without insulating sheathing would come in around 10-12 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F.

Bigger houses usually have more efficient shapes, and lower BTU/ft^2 ratios.

Is this a completely UN-insulated house with steel sash single panes or something?

All BTU per square foot rules of thumb suck, and cannot be used for accurately sizing the equipment, but some rules of thumb suck worse than others. 50 BTU per square foot is almost guaranteed to come in 3x or more oversized. While ludicrous oversizing factors don't hurt efficiency for hot air furnaces (it only hurts comfort) it's a significant efficiency hit for a cast iron boiler.

ASHRAE recommends sizing the boiler output to 1.4x the load at the 99% outside design temp, so if it's a 2x6/R20 type 3000' house the design load is likely to be around (or less than) 48,000 BTU/hr @ 0F, and the "right sized" boiler for the heat load would have an output of 1.4 x 48,000 BTU/hr= 67,200 BTU/hr. At 82% efficiency that would be an input of about 82,000 BTU/hr, so in the Burnham Series 2 lineup you'd be looking at the 204 (DOE output of 96K at sea level or about 82-85K derated for altitude.)

Correlating fuel use to heating degree days is a pretty good model for estimating heat loads. It's not perfect, but it's a measurement (however crude), and way better than a rule of thumb!

So, you are saying 96000btu?
 

Heyjoe

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At 5000' you would only need to derate to 85-90% of the labeled DOE output, maybe less (depending on where Burnham's literature starts the derating.)

Seeing how many minutes it takes to burn through a cubic foot of gas isn't going to tell you anything about your heat load. My understanding is that many local gas-grids in Colorado adjust the mixture of gases in the fuel to a somewhat lower BTU content so that equipment designed for lower altitudes will always work without modifying the equipment, which may be where the 161K label came from(?).




Why on EARTH would you use something as ridiculous as "...50 btu per sq.foot..."?

What is your local 99% outside design temp (approximately)? Most locations in CO at or near 5000' have design temps in low to mid positive single digits F. But to keep it simple let's assume 0F, a design temp where I have more experience.

A typical tight 2x4 framed insulated house with clear glass double-panes would come in under 20 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F outside many would be around 15 BTU/hr per foot.

A tight 2x6/R20 house without insulating sheathing would come in around 10-12 BTU/hr per foot @ 0F.

Bigger houses usually have more efficient shapes, and lower BTU/ft^2 ratios.

Is this a completely UN-insulated house with steel sash single panes or something?

All BTU per square foot rules of thumb suck, and cannot be used for accurately sizing the equipment, but some rules of thumb suck worse than others. 50 BTU per square foot is almost guaranteed to come in 3x or more oversized. While ludicrous oversizing factors don't hurt efficiency for hot air furnaces (it only hurts comfort) it's a significant efficiency hit for a cast iron boiler.

ASHRAE recommends sizing the boiler output to 1.4x the load at the 99% outside design temp, so if it's a 2x6/R20 type 3000' house the design load is likely to be around (or less than) 48,000 BTU/hr @ 0F, and the "right sized" boiler for the heat load would have an output of 1.4 x 48,000 BTU/hr= 67,200 BTU/hr. At 82% efficiency that would be an input of about 82,000 BTU/hr, so in the Burnham Series 2 lineup you'd be looking at the 204 (DOE output of 96K at sea level or about 82-85K derated for altitude.)

Correlating fuel use to heating degree days is a pretty good model for estimating heat loads. It's not perfect, but it's a measurement (however crude), and way better than a rule of thumb!

So, you are saying 96000 btu input?
The home is 2x6 construction and stucco.The windows are double pane with gas. The home is oriented north and south with 19 windows facing south.When the sun shines the boiler never runs.The insulation is blown into the walls and attic.The garage door is 2 inches thick to accommodate more insulation.
One nice thing about the large boiler and supply and return lines to floor system the 24x36 garage/wood shop is never cold. I can do woodworking in the winter months in comfort. So it’s not completely waste heat.
 
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Dana

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You seem to be saying that I need a 96000 btu boiler.I really thought the boiler was going out, so I asked three plumbing companies for bids. I got back two so far. Both were for Burnham 150000. Btu boilers.

I'm absolutely NOT saying you need a 96,000 BTU or any other size boiler! (But it's always the output number that matters, not input.)

What I am saying is that you need to do some reasonable amount of load analysis to determine the size that is needed (and that math is not "lessee, xx BTU/ft taimes three thou comes ta YY,000 BTU", which is utter crap.)

Log fuel use against heating degree day data to determine how much the load increases per degree of outdoor temperature drop. That's a measurement of the heat load.

The gold standard is an ACCA Manual-J calculation based on the construction and dimensions of your house and all it's exterior surfaces, which takes a lot more time, but isn't always more accurate. (Most HVAC contractors performing Manual-Js get it wrong by being too conservative in their assumptions.)

But I'm also saying it's pretty likely that your house's load at design temp will be under 70,000 BTU/hr (after derating for altitude, etc), in which if true, something under 100,000 BTU/hr would be appropriate. But if you don't do the math, you'll never know.


The house is 2x6 construction with stucco. The insulation is blown in the walls and attic. The house has 30 windows that are double paned with gas. The long sides of the house face north and south,11 windows face north and 19 face south. When the sun shines the boiler never come on during the day.I have programmable thermostats so I can program them to on before the sun sets, mainly for the months of November thru February.
The nice thing about the large boiler is that it’s in a 24x36 garage/wood shop that is never to cold to work in.I have often wondered how I could channel the waste heat into the house when I don’t have a woodworking project.The garage door is well insulated.

With high solar gain there is some distortion of the fuel-use load calculations, which will come in lower than reality, but do the full analysis anyway.

It's ridiculous to put a boiler in a garage, on the opposite side of an insulated wall. That guarantees that the standby losses are truly lost. That gets even worse when it's a high mass cast iron boiler more than 2x oversized for the design load. If you're replacing the boiler yet keeping it in the garage it will be better to make it a low-mass low-temp modulating condensing boiler to limit the amount of standby & distribution losses. If you want to heat the garage when you're working there, add a hydro-air coil zone specific to the garage.

A modulating condensing boiler with a 10:1 or higher turn down ratio offers quite a bit of forgiveness on oversizing, but when there are a gazillion zones oversizing by too much results in efficiency robbing short-cycling. Read this discussion of the issue.

Note, a fuel-use analysis will include the standby & distribution losses in the load, since there is no way to separate them out. That tends to inflate the load numbers. Whether that load inflation is enough to offset the load deflation from the solar gain error is anybody's guess.
 

Heyjoe

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I'm absolutely NOT saying you need a 96,000 BTU or any other size boiler! (But it's always the output number that matters, not input.)

What I am saying is that you need to do some reasonable amount of load analysis to determine the size that is needed (and that math is not "lessee, xx BTU/ft taimes three thou comes ta YY,000 BTU", which is utter crap.)

Log fuel use against heating degree day data to determine how much the load increases per degree of outdoor temperature drop. That's a measurement of the heat load.

The gold standard is an ACCA Manual-J calculation based on the construction and dimensions of your house and all it's exterior surfaces, which takes a lot more time, but isn't always more accurate. (Most HVAC contractors performing Manual-Js get it wrong by being too conservative in their assumptions.)

But I'm also saying it's pretty likely that your house's load at design temp will be under 70,000 BTU/hr (after derating for altitude, etc), in which if true, something under 100,000 BTU/hr would be appropriate. But if you don't do the math, you'll never know.




With high solar gain there is some distortion of the fuel-use load calculations, which will come in lower than reality, but do the full analysis anyway.

It's ridiculous to put a boiler in a garage, on the opposite side of an insulated wall. That guarantees that the standby losses are truly lost. That gets even worse when it's a high mass cast iron boiler more than 2x oversized for the design load. If you're replacing the boiler yet keeping it in the garage it will be better to make it a low-mass low-temp modulating condensing boiler to limit the amount of standby & distribution losses. If you want to heat the garage when you're working there, add a hydro-air coil zone specific to the garage.

A modulating condensing boiler with a 10:1 or higher turn down ratio offers quite a bit of forgiveness on oversizing, but when there are a gazillion zones oversizing by too much results in efficiency robbing short-cycling. Read this discussion of the issue.

Note, a fuel-use analysis will include the standby & distribution losses in the load, since there is no way to separate them out. That tends to inflate the load numbers. Whether that load inflation is enough to offset the load deflation from the solar gain error is anybody's guess.

Thanks, when the next plumber comes in to make a bid I’ll discuss all the issues you bring up.

Boy, I don’t go into many homes, but I’ve seen more than a few boilers in the garages. When I built the house I was on propane. I was putting it in the basement and was told that was not an option.Good thing because my home theater is great in the basement. The architect nor the engineer ever mentioned boiler location.I guess I needed a electrical, plumbing, energy, mechanical and technology engineer. I did bring in a solar engineer to to discuss heat and hot water storage and the garage was perfect.
 
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Heyjoe

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Is the expansion tank has to piped on the suction side of the boiler pump to work properly also out of the air charge valve is there any water coming out when depressing it? Soot won't raise water pressure and i would wait on putting cleaner in this system since water from boiler drain is clear.
No water comes out. I read one article on line and the plumber said it depends on the type of air eliminator. Air scoop vs spirovent.
 
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Dana

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Thanks, when the next plumber comes in to make a bid I’ll discuss all the issues you bring up.

Boy, I don’t go into many homes, but I’ve seen more than a few boilers in the garages.

I know it's common, but that doesn't even make it to the "good" in the "good>better>best " lineup.

It's also common to see air handlers, furnaces, & ducts in attics above the insulation too, adding 15-20% or more to the cooling load (and somewhat lesser amounts to the heat load), but that doesn't make anywhere near "good" either.

Don't expect plumbers or heating & plumbing contractors to be competent at load calculations- it's not part of the job description. While some plumbing contractors are capable and competent to do both load calculations and complete hydronic heating design, in my area those are a small minority, maybe one out of twenty. The local plumbers I use doing yeoman work on heating projects usually hire out the hydronic design, and the heat load numbers are usually done by a third party, not the hydronic designer.

When I built the house I was on propane. The basement was a no go. Good thing because my home theater is great in the basement. The architect nor the engineer ever mentioned boiler location.I guess I needed a electrical, plumbing, energy, mechanical and technology engineer. I did bring in a solar engineer to to discuss heat and hot water storage and the garage was perfect.

And "...the phone call was perfect..." too. :rolleyes:

My best guest is that the garage was available without a major revision in the architectural design.

That said, solar tanks are FAR more insulated than Series 2 boilers, and at a much lower temperature too. The efficiency hit of putting a solar tank in an unconditioned garage is miniscule compared to that of a cast iron boiler.

A mechanical room located fully inside the thermal envelope of the building doesn't have to be in a basement. With sealed combustion/direct vented boilers the mechanical room doesn't even have to eat up very much interior space either. Almost all condensing boilers are sealed combustion/direct vented, but there are cast iron versions too.

If you like, if you're willing to share a few wintertime gas bill meter-reading dates & quantities (and BTU content of the gas- if known) and a ZIP code (for local weather history data) we can walk through the fuel use based load calculation exercise here.
 

Heyjoe

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The problem with the tank it has to be on the suction side of the main boiler pump, on the discharge it doesn't work. Move both air eliminat or and ex tank pipe them both close to the pump. Take some pics of the boiler,pumps and piping. Cast iron boilers minimum water temp 140* i like 150* radiate heat water temp runs 5-10* over thermostat set point. So piping is critical.
I know it's common, but that doesn't even make it to the "good" in the "good>better>best " lineup.

It's also common to see air handlers, furnaces, & ducts in attics above the insulation too, adding 15-20% or more to the cooling load (and somewhat lesser amounts to the heat load), but that doesn't make anywhere near "good" either.

Don't expect plumbers or heating & plumbing contractors to be competent at load calculations- it's not part of the job description. While some plumbing contractors are capable and competent to do both load calculations and complete hydronic heating design, in my area those are a small minority, maybe one out of twenty. The local plumbers I use doing yeoman work on heating projects usually hire out the hydronic design, and the heat load numbers are usually done by a third party, not the hydronic designer.



And "...the phone call was perfect..." too. :rolleyes:

My best guest is that the garage was available without a major revision in the architectural design.

That said, solar tanks are FAR more insulated than Series 2 boilers, and at a much lower temperature too. The efficiency hit of putting a solar tank in an unconditioned garage is miniscule compared to that of a cast iron boiler.

A mechanical room located fully inside the thermal envelope of the building doesn't have to be in a basement. With sealed combustion/direct vented boilers the mechanical room doesn't even have to eat up very much interior space either. Almost all condensing boilers are sealed combustion/direct vented, but there are cast iron versions too.

If you like, if you're willing to share a few wintertime gas bill meter-reading dates & quantities (and BTU content of the gas- if known) and a ZIP code (for local weather history data) we can walk through the fuel use based load calculation exercise here.
Funny that you mentioned cost and fuel,I was just going to figure out my heating cost for Sept. through May. I do know for the colder months it’s over $200.00 I live in a rural area and the gas supplier is a “Littleton middleman operation” so there is a additional fee included in that bill. The btu seems to have a range from 1077 winter and 1106 summer. Now I think I see why some folks just use 1000 btu’s because it seems to vary monthly.My wife doesn’t save the bills so when I get my net one I will let you know.From what I see at there web site 1 therm = 100 cuft @ .492. I looked at the meter last night and then again this morning it said I used 300 cuft.I must be doing something wrong. But, the I think the temp low was about 36 degrees.

In one of your earlier posts you commented about me measuring gas going through the meter in cubic ft /seconds. I was going to do that because I thought I would tell me something that was related to the boiler input number.
I watched some YouTube video and it said that 90% of the heating units were over sized in the US.
I can Remember staying in a Airbnb in Santa Fe NM and when it started to cool down the furnace came on and it seem to run forever before the room temperature started to rise.I remember thinking at the time, this furnace seems to be undersized.

You are right about sizing, over the years it seems like heating sales people have a one size fits all mentality. I often wondered if companies bought certain models in quantity to get a better price, then pushed that model.

I started looking at my home, not that I can change anything now, but I did see a real easy way I could have Added 6 ft to the length of th e house and place the boiler on an interior wall.That addional space added to the the second floor would have been perfect for a third bathroom upstairs. Costs would have been mostly the increased concrete foundation and bathroom. I wish I hadn’t looked. Now I see why folks who build their own home usually build another.
 
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Dana

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I didn't mention cost at all, only fuel use between specific meter reading dates.

The rate at which a cast iron Burhham is fixed. It's the same cubic feet/second when the burner is firing whether firing when it's 50F outside or 5F outside. The average duty cycle of the burner on-cycles will increase as the outdoor temperature drops though. Yes, the cubic feet per minute and the BTU content of the fuel will measure the actual input BTU rate vs. labeled input BTU rate, but that number isn't particularly relevant.
 

Heyjoe

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The problem with the tank it has to be on the suction side of the main boiler pump, on the discharge it doesn't work. Move both air eliminat or and ex tank pipe them both close to the pump. Take some pics of the boiler,pumps and piping. Cast iron boilers minimum water temp 140* i like 150* radiate heat water temp runs 5-10* over thermostat set point. So piping is critical.

I am not sure I understand .......”radiant heat water temp run 5 - 10 degrees over thermostat set point. So piping is critical.”Unless you are saying that once the zone thermostat quits calling for heat the floor temp will continue to rise and the room temp may end up 72 + and not the 68 setting on the thermostat. Yea, I figured that out early on. The bigger the zone the higher the temp goes over the setting. What about the piping is critical?
 
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