Australian seeking your assistances

[Akpsdvan]

If there is that amount of iron in the water some thing like a pumice filter or Filter Ag filter to act as a sediment filter that backwashes every x number of days.
Once the pointer is in the line that shows the brine draw you should be getting the draw, if all the parts are clean and there is no draw there could be build up in the valve body that is stopping the draw.
I know of a valve that all the brine parts where clean but the hole at the base that was plugged but was hard to see because of where it was and was very easy to over look.

 

[Viewer]

Just another quick question if I may?

Would I be better of trying to slowly move it through the whole processes by firstly, completely emptying the brine tank of all water, before starting at the backwash procedure?

At the moment, the brine tank is full to just under the overflow point, water only.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Note that that red knob is hooked to the big multi-lobe cam. So instead of turning the red knob, you can turn the cam after pushing and holding the red button in to de-couple from the timer. That gives a better place to grip and keeps you from distorting the slot in the red knob. The red knob also serves as the indicator.

During brine draw, you can watch the clear housing. After brine fill from the previous cycle, that housing should be full of water. That housing should keep enough water in it during the draw for the ball to float. Only after all of the brine (or water in your test) has been sucked out, should the ball fall and stop the flow. If the ball stays high, there is no brine being drawn.

Backwashing iron filters are really nice. That would typically be the first thing after your pressure tank. The choice of filter would be determined by how much iron you have, what form it is in, what the pH is, and how much water flow you need. Also, what other things should be dealt with, such as sulfur. Besides keeping the softener clean, removing iron saves salt. And they remove sediment. You want to get a water test that measures your iron, sulfates, manganese, hardness, and probably a few other things.

We have something called Super Iron Out that is useful for cleaning iron deposits. It might be available under a different name there. It does not do the job of a backwashing iron filter, but it can be used to help keep softeners, that deal with a moderate amount of iron, cleaner. It can be used with toilet tanks and bowls, and can be mixed with salt in the brine tank.

And if the clear housing is full, and the brine tank is full, skipping right to the brine draw for troubleshooting makes sense.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Yes to your questions with one exception, the prefilter will load up with rust and require replacement and until it is replaced it will reduce the water flow during backwash.

You should watch the cam shaft and see which flapper valves open/close as you push in and rotate the red button. When some close and others open, that is where you stop for the length of time you want to be in that cycle position.

The passageway between the injector screen and the injector has to be cleaned too.

CLR may not be as good in getting rid of iron as Iron Out or Super Iron Out but you need something to clean the resin of the rust and backwash alone won't do it correctly.

Before you add salt to the brine tank, add 5 gallons of water.

 

[Viewer]

Thank you again…all info is appreciated.



Regarding the red knob position, for say starting backwash, would you move the knob to the start of the line that indicated backwash, or to the centre indicator( is the length of the line an indication of time only).



Would I then move it to the start of the line on slow rinse, or move it to the centre position between refrigerant draw/slow rinse.



Likewise would I then move to the line on the start of fast rinse/refil or the centre point.



Finally then put it to centre position conditioned water.



Sorry to ask, as I know it has been suggested already to use the centre points, but I wonder why they bother to put the lines there at all?



If I rotate the cam by holding in the red button, and pushing it around via the cam, is it where the cams hit against, and click over, that is the actual pinpoint start of each action?



In regards cleaning things, the items put back were closely cleaned with a toothbrush in warm soapy water, and any little bit of muck cleaned from them completely. I could see through the injector, get water through it ok ( could see through it when I removed it, it was not blocked). The screen though was all glugged up, and took a lot to get right, but was nice on return to the unit.



In the video I was directed to, which was most helpful, it indicated a ball in a bypass area on the back left hand side as you look at it from front on. The reason I could not find it as reported earlier was that it was located on the right side(looking from the front) but up behind the glass water intake position….I had to remove the brine line off of the glass to get that one out.



The slot running between the injector and the screen I cleaned out with fabric pulling between, getting all the gunk, same as the spots where the balls came out. Later somewhere, I read a pipe cleaner was good for this…wish I had seen it early!.



Finally, in relation to me asking about water in the brine tank, and Gary saying “Before you add salt to the brine tank, add 5 gallons of water”….. to test my draw, should I empty out the water in the brine tank now, and leave it empty, or should I fill it with the 5 gallons, before starting it at the initial backwash position to see if there is suction? Ie at what place on the clock would I expect to feel/see water being sucked?



Thanks

 

[Reach4]

>Regarding the red knob position, for say starting backwash, would
>you move the knob to the start of the line that indicated backwash,
>or to the centre indicator( is the length of the line an indication
>of time only).

I would say somewhere between the start and the centre. At the beginning, the paddles are probably just beginning to move, and after a little more, the paddles are in position. Watch the cams contact and release the the paddles as you turn a time or two. You can turn the water off as you rotate if you just want to watch.

>
>Would I then move it to the start of the line on slow rinse, or
>move it to the centre position between refrigerant draw/slow rinse.

Brine and rinse come after backwash, and I think that is where your problem is. Brining is where the brine is sucked thru the clear housing and the ball is still floating. The slow rinse has the same positions of the brining, but the brine tank got sucked down and air is coming in. The ball sinks and shuts off the path.

Here is where you want to see what is gong on in your housing.

Your AU unit might have different wording, but I doubt that "refrigerant" is one of the words.

{snip}
>
>If I rotate the cam by holding in the red button, and pushing it
>around via the cam, is it where the cams hit against, and click
>over, that is the actual pinpoint start of each action?

The flappers are parts of valves, which you should have cleaned by the way. Sometimes they need replacing. Sometimes you can get some extra life by turning them aroud.

{snip}
>
>Finally, in relation to me asking about water in the brine tank,
>and Gary saying "Before you add salt to the brine tank, add 5
>gallons of water"... to test my draw, should I empty out the water
>in the brine tank now, and leave it empty, or should I fill it with
>the 5 gallons, before starting it at the initial backwash position
>to see if there is suction? Ie at what place on the clock would I
>expect to feel/see water being sucked?

If you already have about that much water, there would be no need to add more. That would be if you were starting with an empty brine tank. You would add more water than normal (and then let the salt disolve) for the first cycle to try go get the resin working again.

Did you get your unit to draw water from the brine tank during brine draw? Until that happens, I would stick with water for your testing and cleaning.

 

[Viewer]

>


Your AU unit might have different wording, but I doubt that "refrigerant" is one of the words.

My mistake sorry, it does say "regenerant"

Sorry for being pedantic, but do I need to have that 5 gallons of water in the brine tank to do the backwash, is that where it cleans the unit from, or in backwash, does the valve open, allow water from the well straight in, and this is used to backwash. Is the brine only sucking when in the final fast rinse/refill stage.

Again, apology for my slight "thickness" in understanding everything. I think this is confusing me, as every time I have moved the button to a new position and looked into the tank, it seems to fill only...maybe I don't notice the draw, as the brine tank is too full, as the water line is presently just below the overflow position on the brine tank.

Thank you.

 

[Akpsdvan]

When cleaning the salt tank/brine tank there will no longer be water in there when finished.
Like priming a pump to get it started , there needs to be water in the salt tank for the first regen.
The system first draws out the brine then rinse and then refill the salt tank. So if you do not prime the pump there will not be the first round of brine after the cleaning of the salt tank.

Clear as mud?

 

[Viewer]

I bet you are all sick of me.

In the last little while I have removed the wand with the micro mesh end from the brine tank, washed it, cleaned it, made sure there is no obstruction by both blowing water through the wand, and being able to suck up through it.

Whilst the line was off, I got the pipe and tried to blow air through the pipe into the glass tank that is full of water with the bubble floating ( I am in the conditioned water mode on the clock) and it went in a tiny little, but was mighty hard to do, using all my effort. I also tried to suck on it, to see what happened, and, as I got nothing, I also stuck my tongue over the pipe before letting the air/water pressure out, and the line stuck my tongue to the end of it, until I let it go. That to me seemed to prove that it appeared to be ok tube wise or the flappers were in place????

I have reconnected the brine wand to the tank etc, and am ready to test again, pending confirmation of whether to remove what water is in the brine tank now, leave it empty before backwash, or add the 5 gallon amount prior to pressing backwash.

Confirmation please...thanks all, sorry to be a pain in the behind.

 

[Viewer]

When cleaning the salt tank/brine tank there will no longer be water in there when finished.
Like priming a pump to get it started , there needs to be water in the salt tank for the first regen.
The system first draws out the brine then rinse and then refill the salt tank. So if you do not prime the pump there will not be the first round of brine after the cleaning of the salt tank.

Clear as mud?

Ah ha...you posted this as I was writing.

Thanks...

OK, I will clear out the old water in the brine tank, add 5 gallons, and then start up.....shall report back

Thanks...

 

[Akpsdvan]

Some times it works that way... let us know how the system is working after the break down and cleaning.

 

[Viewer]

edit...
Just reread this and I think I may have open and closed on flapper terminology wrongly written, so have changed it

The serial pest returns….not good news.

Going from an autotrol 155 manual that akpsdvan sent me, I did not even see the brine valve at the front...the timer housing must have been in the way?? I have just listed these the way I saw them.
Manual shows things this way..
My problem is, I seemed to find 7 different locations to the drawings, so I am uncertain of my results, as the manual says 5? I wonder on the clock face, what are the 5 points I should have it to compare?

Part 1
Emptied brine tank, filled it with 5 exact gallons of water.
Starting position was on conditioned water arrow
From the back going forward, looking from the left hand side front of unit
Flaps 6 in closed position
flap 5 closed
flap 4 open
flap 3 and 2 open
Flap 1 Brine unknown
Water flowing to house
No water existing waste
Glass bowl full of water, ball floating

Part 2
Moved cam to first place where something happened
Red arrow pointed at backwash
Flaps 6 in open position
Flap 5 closed
Flap 4 open
Flap 3 open
Flap 2 closed
Flap 1 Brine unknown
Water going to waste
Glass bowl full of water, ball floating

Part 3
Moved cam to next change and this showed red arrow on dial pointing to the ½ way part of the line saying regenerant draw slow rinse
Flappers 6 closed
Flap 5 closed
Flap 4 open
Flap3 and 2 closed
Flap 1 Brine unknown
Water going to waste
Glass bowl full of water, ball floating

Part 4
Moved cam to next change and this showed red arrow on dial pointing straight up at the line saying regenerant draw slow rinse
Flappers 6 closed
Flap 5 closed
Flap 4 open
Flaps 3 and 2 closed
Flap 1 Brine unknown
Water going to waste
Glass bowl full of water, ball floating

Part 5
Moved cam along a bit, everything at a stop, no action

Part 6
Moved cam to next change and this showed red arrow on dial pointing to just after the line saying regenerant draw slow rinse
Flapper 6 closed
Flap 5 closed
Flap 4 open
Flap 3 closed
Flap 2 open
Flap 1 Brine unknown
No water going to waste
Glass bowl full of water, ball floating

Part 7
Moved cam to next change and this showed red arrow on dial pointing to the start line of first rinse refill
Flap 6 closed
Flap 5 closed...but appeared slightly open???
Flap 4 closed
Flap 3 and 2 open
Flap 1 Brine unknown
Glass bowl full, floating ball
Water going to waste

Part 8
Back to conditioned water setting, as per part 1

I saw brine going into tank on some occasions, but nothing going out.

SO…
I repeated it all again with the brine line put into a full glass of water to try see what was happening. It seemed easier than trying to peer inside the brine tank. I put the brine line at the same level as the bottom of the tank, and popped it into the full glass of water, rotating the cam slowly, progressing it through different clicks. My theory being, I should see it suck or send.
Results
Part 1 Conditioned water. nothing happened on the brine line.
Part 2 Start Backwash cycle…no nothing happening brine line
Part 3 Water flowing out of brine line
Part 4 Water flowing out of brine line
Part 5 nothing happening on brine line
Part 6 Water flowing out of brine line
Part 7 Water flowing out of brine line
Part 8 Back to conditioned water nothing happening on brine line .

Ok, then it looks like brine intake is cactus, and at no time it sucked, or did the glass full of water with the floating ball change at all.
I am surmising that the next thing I am advised to do would be to rip off the head of the valve, and replace every flapper? Before I do that (or if), is there anything else left to suggest? As I stated before, parts not available in Australia, so I would have to buy a kit from USA and get it shipped to here, about $100 all up. It does not appear too complicated to do this from the few videos on youtube I have seen, and it looks a case of pulling the old out and new in. Do you have to clean out the area where the flappers go into, or what? If I were to do them, I was likely to do it in situ, without taking it off the top of the tank, but do you say take it off and change the media as well? I gratefully accept the unit is also old, and maybe the better investment is something new?

All thoughts etc appreciated…sorry for the length of reply, but I thought the more information given, helps in fault analysis?

 

[Reach4]

Here are a couple of snips from the manual that Ditttohead linked to:

Since your clear check valve housing stays full of water, we can eliminate f.
>I then went to go to try and see what it would do after the
>backwash position was moved from.
That would be regerate/brining.

>When in any of the next cycles, it appeared to me, that water would
>go into the brine tank, but it did not appear it was drawing from
>it? The difficulty here is knowing how far to manually progress
>the little red button, as when I seem to move it a little bit,
>other things gently seem to change...it's like I need to know
>exactly where within the lines/time shown on the guage, that the
>draw part starts. I am thinking I may not be hitting the right
>spot, and because the timer mechanism is broke, it doesn't get to
>that stage. Would I be correct, or am I drawing an incorrect
>assumption, and barking up the wrong tree?
>
>Is there another method to test the draw?

That is a long stage. So anywhere near where the arrow is straight up should be good for the testing that you want to do.

>
>If I were to take the draw line out of the tank, and get say a
>bucket of water, filled to the top, I assume on fill, the water
>should go into the bucket which is full, and now overflow> I assume
>this confirms filling from the valve is working ok...correct?

I presume so also. If that did not happen, then that would narrow the problem to something that affects both brine draw and fill.
>
>Likewise, using the same test, try to find the brine draw area on
>the timer, and see if the bucket starts to empty, indicating it is
>drawing ok..correct?

Yes, but I think it is not going to show emptying in your case, because that is your problem. If the water level in the checkvalve housing and the ball sucked down some during the brining stage, I would be thinking of other causes. But you ball floats high, and the water in the housing stays high.

>
>It is now approaching dark outside and I can do no more until
>tomorrow, so if someone reads this between now and our morning
>time, and has some suggestions, then I would be mightily happy to
>see your suggestions.
>
>At this stage, I have no salt in the brine tank, thinking that
>wasteful until it can be determined if all is ok.

Right.
>
>Lastly, surmising I got this fixed, or even had to purchase another
>valve unit, would it be any sort of use putting a simplistic
>cartridge filter or something in line, prior to the
>ironised/stained water entering the valve, and into the softener
>brine tank etc?
Regarding dealing with the iron before the softener, I think that is warranted. It will save salt too. I suggest a water test to see what you are dealing with before choosing a solution there. I have a single tank backwashing system that works with my water, but it may well not be suitable for yours. The test should test hardness, pH, iron, manganese, maybe sulfate, and maybe some others. A more complex but effective system is a chlorine injector (often bleach solution), settling/contact tank, and finally a backwashing activated charcoal filter to remove the stuff precipitated out by the chlorine plus the remaining chlorine. A simple Big Blue 20 inch by 4.5 inch filter or two might help some iron, but it is not going to be as effective or convenient as a backwashing filter. Plus you would be buying cartridges. If you do install such a filter housing, allow that you might later get a backwashing filter. Figure to have the housing after the backwashing filter. It will have very little to catch once the backwashing filter is in, but it might catch a little bit. My point is that the backwashing filter goes first after the pressure tank.

You want to see if you can find something like Super Iron Out. Even if you get a nice system, you would use that to clean what crud remains from before your new system gets operational.

 

[Viewer]

Thank you,

I can be 100% certain that water is going to the brine tank, as the test via just using a drinking glass and the tube in it, proved water being pushed into the drinking glass, and overflowing it in different cycles.

As I say, I never ever saw it draw from the drinking glass and tube when I put it through a few of the places on the backwash etc. Not once ever did I see anything but water and the floating bubble in the unit's air glass receptacle. I could never ever see the ball drop in any way, nor ever see any air in the glass receptacle.Should I have seen the ball/float/glass receptacle do any different than being full and the ball floating at the top?

 

[Reach4]

Yes.

Your problem is not drawing brine. You should have seen the water being sucked down , and expect that to draw the water down some, by creating a partial vacuum.

 

[Akpsdvan]

From my understanding you have cleaned the injector and the screen and the other parts in that area, so if they are clean there should be draw. If there is no draw then there could be a build up inside the valve or in the flapper area there could be a flapper with a build up on so it is seating correctly ... the plastic that the flapper seats on with a build up..
There should only be one spot on the cycle where water goes to the salt tank, more than one spot means there is a problem.
If water is going to the salt tank in the draw cycle one would be looking at flapper or build up inside the valve body where it is hard to clean.

 

[Reach4]

There should only be one spot on the cycle where water goes to the salt tank, more than one spot means there is a problem.

It depends on what you call a spot. The valves are in the same position from about the 2 o'clock position to about the 9 o'clock position as the arrow rotates counterclockwise.

 

[Viewer]

Thanks again...so if we determine it is just brine draw, and yes we have done injector screen and draw line to rule them out,you then say flappers.As I say, I never looked at the brine flapper, could it be that it is just this that is the possible cause, in that it will move to allow water to go one way, but not the other...does this happen? Is there something I could do like press on that flapper to see if that relieves it, or makes any difference? My assumption, as far as I see it ( with no technical knowledge at all) draws my attention to that? Is there something within that flapper area I should just look at, try to clean in isolation, or is it always policy to do all flappers and o rings? Is just doing the brine flapper a low percentage fix compared to paying the extra for a whole new kit?

Before I got to the replacement flappers stage, should I unscrew the head unit, revealing the flappers, and do an inspection first? How do you determine if a flapper is faulty, do I expect to see some part of it worn away, rusted or whatever? If they all looked ok, but maybe there was some crud or something where they sit, do you wash those holes out or something? Or is it somewhere after the flappers that may have something obstructing the sucking of brine? The part that seems odd to me as a learner, is the brine flap obviously opens to allow water into the brine tank, and sometime later, when in conditioned mode, must close as no water enters the brine tank in service mode. Surely if the brine flapper was partially open at all times, not closing to enable draw, then water would continue to come out of that brine line, continually filling the brine tank?

Please tell me those answers and put me out of my misery and confusion!

Again, I appreciate the time and effort you are giving me...THANKS

 

[Gary Slusser]

I suggest checking the injector again and making sure there is no blockage lengthwise or sideways through it and that all the o-rings are where they belong and not damaged.

The brine flapper could be kept open by rust etc. if any is on the flat surface of the flapper or the valve where the flapper mates to it to form a seal. Flappers develop an indentation where they seal against the valve and anything getting caught in that groove prevents sealing. The valve part of the seal surface is like the end of a pipe that has a rounded end as opposed to a 90* sharp cornered end (as caused by a hacksaw or tubing cutter). Water pressure holds the flapper against that surface and any dirt caught in the seal area causes a leak.

 

[Reach4]

Before I got to the replacement flappers stage, should I unscrew the head unit, revealing the flappers, and do an inspection first?

I don't know what you are calling a head unit. Thirty seconds into the YouTube video in reply 14 it shows how to pull the flappers and put them back.

I would use silicon grease on any o-rings I replaced and maybe on other sealing rubber surfaces. I have a tube of Molykote 111, but there are others that would be suitable too. I use disposable nitrile gloves for applying grease because that sticky grease does not wash off easily. I probably over-use it, but even at that, a little goes a long way. I am not implying that lack of grease would cause your problem. I find this sentence in the manual for a different Autotrol controller: " Lubricate the O-rings on the injector, injector cap and injector screen with silicone lubricant only!" In that same manual, it says 'Injector Size “C” Red. . . Nozzle .059-inch (1.5-mm) diameter, Throat .099-inch (2.5-mm) diameter" In any cases, you are working with small passages.

During that long regenerate/brining phase, the water is routed through a venturi, which I presume is the injector, and then out the drain tube. Check for flow out of the drain tube.I don't know what the flow rate out of the drain tube should be during slow rinse/brine draw/regenerate draw with your red C injector. Here is a graph from a different Autotrol C injector that may be similar. So I am suggesting you either estimate or measure the flow out of the drain tube with a container and a watch. If it is way low, that would point to where to look for the problem. It is probably not way low, but it would be telling if it was. While you are at it, check that the drain is not passing water in the "service"/ "conditioned water" setting.

Regarding that slow rinse/brine draw/regenerate draw phase, I know you have a problem with it. It may not be the only problem, but it is the one that is for sure based on symptoms.