Skin sensitivity to Salt?

[Kamisn]

Hey guys and gals, my background story is in this link thread that you may have helped me already on the previous subject https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/water-softener-salt-stains.74299/

Short version of the story is we have replaced the old water softener in the house we bought last year with a hybrid Watts system with carbon compartment, after couple of weeks of using the system (I think after first regeneration) we started having skin sensitivity issues and salt water staining on the bathroom sinks, going through multiple troubleshooting I have decided to swap the hybrid system with simple softener.

Fast forward the system was installed and we felt the difference with no more skin issues and low amount of salt staining, then last Sunday for some reason system regenerated "prematurely" as I still had 950 gal of metered meter to go and the time interval to regenerate was set for 21 days (will observe that later to find out why?). the system is Watts 45,000 (1.cuft) Vortech tank with Clack 5 button WS1. I have the systems set at 9 lb salt with C5 program on the valve that allows couple of extra minutes on backwash and rinse mode, my water hardness is 11 grain.

So some skin irritation started right after regeneration and now I am wondering if the salt is an issue? I even switched from pellet salts to solar crystal salt thinking if the pellet salts have some bonding agent that can cause irritation. Would it make sense to switch to potassium instead? any thoughts on this?

We had no skin issues with previous softener and I am thinking maybe the resin inside was bad enough that during regen cycle no salt would absorbed to it and it would just go through and that's why we had no issue.

 

[Reach4]

I cannot help with the main question.

Fast forward the system was installed and we felt the difference with no more skin issues and low amount of salt staining, then last Sunday for some reason system regenerated "prematurely" as I still had 950 gal of metered meter to go and the time interval to regenerate was set for 21 days (will observe that later to find out why?).

This is from the Clack WS1 manual:

To initiate a manual regeneration at the preset delayed regeneration time, when the regeneration time option is set to “NORMAL” or “NORMAL + on 0”, press and release “REGEN”. The words “REGEN TODAY” will flash on the display to indicate that the system will regenerate at the preset delayed regeneration time. If you pressed the “REGEN” button in error, pressing the button again will cancel the request.​

I did that accidentally with my Fleck. I was checking the diagnostics, which calls for me to push two buttons at once. One of those buttons would be the equivalent of the REGEN button on yours. The softener regenerated early that night. Since I try to make sure the indicator is not flashing after I am done fiddling.

 

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[Kamisn]

I did that accidentally with my Fleck. I was checking the diagnostics, which calls for me to push two buttons at once. One of those buttons would be the equivalent of the REGEN button on yours. The softener regenerated early that night. Since I try to make sure the indicator is not flashing after I am done fiddling.

I actually was checking the system on daily basis when pulled in the garage to make sure how long of the cycle left and on Saturday night it had 950 left before I went inside which would have been like one week of usage, then Sunday morning went back to 2,540. There was no 'REGEN Today" flashing on the meter panel, I am wondering if the flashing indicator shows up on the day of regeneration rather than the night before, mine is setup for 2am. On the other note the regen happened on the 11th day of install, which I think by default the system is set on 11 day regen cycle but I changed it to 21 days after installation so the metered version to be the primary option, I wonder somehow that did not override the original settings.

 

[Reach4]

There was no 'REGEN Today" flashing on the meter panel, I am wondering if the flashing indicator shows up on the day of regeneration rather than the night before, mine is setup for 2am.

I am reasonably sure that is not the case. I am basing this on how I think the Flecks work and logic (which is sometimes a mistake).

On the other note the regen happened on the 11th day of install, which I think by default the system is set on 11 day regen cycle but I changed it to 21 days after installation so the metered version to be the primary option, I wonder somehow that did not override the original settings.

That seems likely. It's certainly worth checking.

 

[Kamisn]

That seems likely. It's certainly worth checking.

I will keep eye on that for next few days till next cycle.

On the skin irritation I am thinking what if the issue is this and not the salt?

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jul2001/996090332.Ch.r.html

"The soft water has a much reduced
ability to combine with the soap film on your body and therefore, it is
much more difficult to rinse off."

But also if it was soap rinsing-off issue, it should have existed before the system gone to its first regen cycle.

 

[Reach4]

I will keep eye on that for next few days till next cycle.

by checking , I meant to go inspect the step 3I setting.

Regarding soap rinsing, I forget. You probably said you had switched to a mild soap for sensitive skin.

 

[Kamisn]

by checking , I meant to go inspect the step 3I setting.

Regarding soap rinsing, I forget. You probably said you had switched to a mild soap for sensitive skin.

3I?

I have been using Dove Sensitive soap which I believe is categorized as syndet soap per recommendation of our dermatologist for several years now.

 

[Reach4]

3I?

From page 24 of WS1 manual version "Form #V3115 – revised 9/01"

STEP 3I – Day Override: When gallon capacity is set to off, sets the number of days
between regenerations. When gallon capacity is set to AUTO or to a number, sets the
maximum number of days between regenerations. If value set to “oFF” regeneration
initiation is based solely on gallons used. If value is set as a number (allowable range from
1 to 28) a regeneration initiation will be called for on that day even if sufficient number of
gallons were not used to call for a regeneration. Set Day Override using ∇ or ∆ buttons:
• number of days between regeneration (1 to 28); or
• “oFF”.
​

Edit: I don't find "C5" in the manual I had downloaded. Do you have a URL for a service manual for your controller that describes programming your controller?

 

[Bannerman]

While salt (Sodium Chloride) is utilized to restore softening capacity to the resin, once the salt brine is in contact with the resin, it is split into sodium and chloride. Sodium is exchanged with calcium, magnesium and other hardness ions adhering to the resin. The calcium, magnesium and chloride are rinsed to drain during the Brine Draw/slow rinse phase of the regeneration cycle.

Does the water have any salty taste immediately following regeneration? If Brine Draw is set to 60 minutes, then the brine from the brine tank should be all drawn within the first 12 - 15 minutes of that stage of regeneration. If it is taking longer than 15 minutes to empty the brine tank, you may then wish to increase the BD setting to 4 - 5 times the actual draw time needed, to ensure complete rinsing of the resin bed.

it is
much more difficult to rinse off."

Since calcium and magnesium will combine with soap to form sticky curds (soap scum), it will be more difficult to remove soap residue when using hard water. When not accustomed to soft water, many people think the soft, smooth feeling of the natural oils within their skin without soap scum interfering, as being soap residue that is difficult to rinse off.

Which part(s) on the body is the skin irritation occurring? If on areas in contact with clothing, perhaps the clothing continues to contain detergent or other additives which are being reacted with. Suggest rewashing all clothing using a reduced quantity of laundry detergent formulated for sensitive skin and containing no perfumes. Also, try not using fabric softener or other additives or anti-static dryer sheets for some time.

 

[Bannerman]

I recall your setup utilizes an extremely long 1/2" drain line which is buried.

If the skin irritation persists, suggest temporarily disconnecting the softener drain so as to discharge to an alternate drain location. Perhaps the existing pipe is partially crushed or crimped, or the excessive length is causing too much restriction for the required DLFC rate.

the system is Watts 45,000 (1.cuft) Vortech tank

If 45.000 Grains is the total softener capacity, then that will utilize 1.5 cuft of resin normally placed in a 10" X 54" tank. A 10" tank will often utilize 2.4 gpm DLFC but as you are located in Texas, your water may be somewhat warmer and thereby require a higher drain flow rate.

 

[Kamisn]

I recall your setup utilizes an extremely long 1/2" drain line which is buried.

If the skin irritation persists, suggest temporarily disconnecting the softener drain so as to discharge to an alternate drain location. Perhaps the existing pipe is partially crushed or crimped, or the excessive length is causing too much restriction for the required DLFC rate.



If 45.000 Grains is the total softener capacity, then that will utilize 1.5 cuft of resin normally placed in a 10" X 54" tank. A 10" tank will often utilize 2.4 gpm DLFC but as you are located in Texas, your water may be somewhat warmer and thereby require a higher drain flow rate.

The water did not taste salty, which I specifically tasted it after Regen to make sure.

As you know Unfortunately 5 button Clack won’t allow customized configurations as it has 6 presets which 3 of them are identical to the other three in brine draw time with exception that they have longer time for backwash and rinse time. The draw time presets are at 45,60 and 75 minutes and currently based on the setting the system chosen based on 30k grain and 9lb of salt is program number 2 with 60 minuets of draw and depend on if you chose longer backwash time would be number 5 which I picked so it gives more high flow wash time.

I could not time the regeneration after new softener has been installed as it occurred at night, however for 9 lb of salt I can’t imagine it would go over 15 minutes of draw as there is not much brine in the tank.

One other option is to arbitrarily reduce the capacity number setting to 24k which will trick the system that the salt amount is high so it would need program 6 which is the 75 min Regen cycle. However this will reduce the metered Regen cycle of the valve, that I could bypass and stick to every two weekend scheduled intervals, but this will defeats the purpose of metered valve.

On the skin issue it’s mostly on upper back and shoulders, where it’s harder to wash off. The detergent we use is infant dreft detergent plus sensitive cloth softener, we do use dryer sheets. I can stop using the last to for the next load of laundry.

But the issue almost disappeared when the new softener was installed and the resin was brand new until regeneration happened few days ago and that’s why I am thinking it could be the salt sensitivity.

How is a brand new resin charged/ionized at factory before first regeneration occurs in the softener?

 

[Kamisn]

So I assumed if the brine draw is 15 minuets, I need 75 min total of regeneration which is equal to prest 3 for normal wash and 6 for longer backwash, to achieve this I setup the valve at 22.5k grain which activated C6 to allow enough Regen Time then in metering menu I changed it from Auto to manual of 2500 gallon reserve capacity which I based it on how system auto calculated for 30k capacity at 11 grain hardness. I did this to avoid premature regeneration. Now either when I reach the 2500 usage or 21 days regen should happen. I will keep an eye on next gen cycle to see how it affect water quality.

On the other hand I also will check and see if the gutter drainage system is made out of solid pvc all the way or is perforated, if perforated then I have no option than using my current drained line.

 

[Reach4]

Why not run the drain line to your laundry sink or washing machine standpipe? Or some other drain, if those are not accessible.

 

[Kamisn]

Why not run the drain line to your laundry sink or washing machine standpipe? Or some other drain, if those are not accessible.

Unfortunately the softener is in an almost detached garage with no access to any drain, the closest drain cap outside the house is about 40 feet away across the driveway which requires tearing the concrete driveway that doesn’t make sense to do, and here in Texas we have no basement for easy access.

 

[Bannerman]

But the issue almost disappeared when the new softener was installed and the resin was brand new until regeneration happened few days ago and that’s why I am thinking it could be the salt sensitivity.

As the problem was worse only after the softener was regenerated at your home, this is why I suggested using an alternate drain route.

If you can't measure the drain flow rate where it currently discharges into the ditch or wherever it does 85' away from the softener, then temporarily replacing the drain tube for a shorter 3/4" and allowing the softener to discharge into the soil beside the garage or onto the driveway, would be useful to establish if the irritation problem goes away.

Edit to add: The Rapid Rinse stage is used to recompact the resin bed, not to rinse brine from the resin. If brine rinse is not sufficient, then the Brine Draw/Slow Rinse setting is normally increased.

 

[Kamisn]

As the problem was worse only after the softener was regenerated at your home, this is why I suggested using an alternate drain route.

If you can't measure the drain flow rate where it currently discharges into the ditch or wherever it does 85' away from the softener, then temporarily replacing the drain tube for a shorter 3/4" and allowing the softener to discharge into the soil beside the garage or onto the driveway, would be useful to establish if the irritation problem goes away.

Edit to add: The Rapid Rinse stage is used to recompact the resin bed, not to rinse brine from the resin. If brine rinse is not sufficient, then the Brine Draw/Slow Rinse setting should be increased.

I will try that by running a snake camera to my gutter drain to make sure its a solid PVC line as I don't want to introduce high concentration of salt to my vegetation in the yard and grass, then will run a shorter line after airgap valve to that drain and will see what happens.

On the other note I am wondering if switching to potassium may help? The reason I think it could be sensitivity to salt is when last time I swapped the salt pellets with crystal salt by cleaning my brine tank, when my skin on occasions had direct contact with salt or brine I developed rash on the contact area.

 

[Kamisn]

I recall your setup utilizes an extremely long 1/2" drain line which is buried.

If the skin irritation persists, suggest temporarily disconnecting the softener drain so as to discharge to an alternate drain location. Perhaps the existing pipe is partially crushed or crimped, or the excessive length is causing too much restriction for the required DLFC rate.
If

I removed the salt from the tank and replaced it with potassium and did appropriate adijustments and a set for fill first. But as you suggested I inspected the line and the drain line and right at the end of the line was sitting next to curb, which was reducing the flow and velocity of water! By pulling the drain line half an inch up the water was gushing out during back wash comparing to what was going on previously. Haven’t done a complete regeneration but I am thinking this could have been very much the issue all along with the system, I will keep you all posted.

Thanks for all the help and input.

 

[Reach4]

I am glad that appears to be sorted out.

In retrospect, a TDS meter on the softened water could have been useful. A TDS meter is not useful for testing whether a softener is softening, but it can measure incomplete rinsing. I expect it would be a more sensitive indicator than taste.

 

[Bannerman]

As you made 2 changes, you can't be certain which of the 2 resulted in the irritation subsiding if it does improve. As there wasn't an irritation issue when you were using the old softener with regular salt, I suspect regular salt will not be an issue once the drain can flow without restriction.

Bending the tube end up from the curb does not seem to be a reliable fix. As it is located at curbside, maybe the tube end had been run over by a vehicle or maintenance equipment, or someone stepped on or tripped over it. Perhaps the tube end should be cut back from the curb so there will be an adequate gap between the tube end and curb, so discharge will not be restricted even when the tube is level with the curb.

 

[Kamisn]

One more question, Morton potassium bags had too much dust along the pellets, is this normal?