Pressure Tank and CSV

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Dogwell

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Hello. Our contractor told us that our pressure tank is shot and should be replaced. We were set to replace it with a 80 or 119 gallon tank then I came across the CSV website. I've spoken to Cary several times and he's been very helpful. I spoke to my contractor about the CSV, and he said he wouldn't recommend it for our usage because the pump would basically be turning on and off all the time, defeating the point of reducing cycles. Our family is comprised of young kids not yet in school, retired parents who are home throughout the day and people who work from home. I can see where he's coming from.

I liked the idea of the constant pressure from the CSV, but it may not be suitable for our needs with such a small tank and everyone being home and using water off and on all day as opposed to within a short period of time. So I'm now wondering whether it's worth pairing a CSV with a bigger tank so the pump doesn't turn on unless being used for showers etc or to refill tank or whether a large 80\119 gallon tank would make the CSV unnecessary. Any suggestions or comments are appreciated!
 

Nolan

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Hello Dogwell, I am also thinking about putting in a CSV valve when I replace my tank.

My first comment is you can use a CSV with a large tank, there is no problem with that. Currently I have an 80 gallon tank, and for my system I could probably use a CSV and a 5 gallon tank just fine. However I was also thinking along the same lines as you, I don't really want my pump to cycle every time the toilet flushes.

What I am probably going to do is meet somewhere in the middle and use a CSV with a 20 or 30 gallon tank. The advantage to that from what I can tell is the CSV will reduce the cycles on longer loads like a shower, and the decent sized tank will help reduce cycles from brief loads like brushing teeth or flushing the toilet.

Cary has a nice calculator here: http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/runtime_app.php that will tell you drawdown on tanks at different pressure setpoints and the cycles per day at different GPM,
 

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I know it is a hard concept to understand, but the CSV with a 4.5 gallon tank will cycle the pump just exactly the same number of times per day for house use as a system with an 80 gallon tank and no CSV. Without a CSV the pump system will just cycle on and off continuously while water is being used for long periods of time like for showers, and not cycle very much for small uses of water like toilet flushes. While the CSV and small tank system will eliminate all cycles while using water for long periods of times, and cycle occasionally for the small uses. But the overall cycles per day will be the same.

Then if you have any real long term water uses like sprinklers, heat pumps, or drip systems, the CSV and small tank will only cause one cycle. Where a "so called properly sized pressure tank" system will cycle the pump on for one minute and off for one minute, which can add up to 720 cycles in a 24 hour day. 720 cycles verses 1 cycle is a big difference for long term uses of water.

With the CSV system, as long as more than 1 GPM is being used, there is ZERO cycling as the pump will run continuously. The water will go right past the tank straight to the shower or sprinkler, so the pump doesn't know if it is a 1 gallon or a million gallon pressure tank.

Actually the more people you have in the house, and the more water is being used, the smaller the tank can be when using a CSV. If you have enough people in the house that someone, somewhere is using water all day, the pump is running all day, and the size of the tank is a moot point. We find that is nursing homes and things like that people will use water heavily certain times of the day. So the pump may run continuous from 7AM to 1PM. Then it may come on a few time between 1PM and 6PM, and run continuous again from 6PM to 10PM.

The average system with the CSV and small tank will cycle the pump from 20 to 50 times per day, which is the same as the big tank method without a CSV. This is well below the pump manufacturers limits of 100-300 cycles per day. Now if you use the CSV with a large tank it will reduce the cycling to much less than the normal cycles per day for house use only. The average cycles per day will decrease from (20 to 50) down to (5 to 20) cycles per day. However, there is always a trade off. While using the CSV with a large tank will reduce the total number of cycles per day somewhat, it will not lengthen the life of the pump enough to justify the added expense of the large tank. Other disadvantages of the large tank include space and heat requirements, not to mention the taste of having your water sitting in a rubber bag for hours before being used. However, the biggest disadvantage of a large tank is low pressure. An 80 gallon tank holds about 25 gallons of water. But when using this 25 gallons the pressure will be decreasing from 60 all the way down to 40 before the pump is started. With the CSV and small tank, the 1 gallon in the 4.5 gallon size tank gets used very quickly when turning on a shower, and the strong constant 50 PSI will be maintained for the entire length of the shower.

Although holding 50 PSI constant may not seem that much different than when a pump is cycling on at 40 and off at 60, it certainly is. People tell me the pressure feels so much stronger they no longer even need soap in the shower, as the pressure just blast the dirt off of them.

Having said all of that, you can use the CSV with any size tank you want. If you already have a large tank, by all means use it. But I am sure you will like the stronger constant pressure from the CSV and small tank system. If you have to purchase a tank, just get the small tank, as you probably have many other uses for the money you can save by not purchasing one of those large expensive tanks.
 

Dogwell

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Hello Dogwell, I am also thinking about putting in a CSV valve when I replace my tank.

My first comment is you can use a CSV with a large tank, there is no problem with that. Currently I have an 80 gallon tank, and for my system I could probably use a CSV and a 5 gallon tank just fine. However I was also thinking along the same lines as you, I don't really want my pump to cycle every time the toilet flushes.

What I am probably going to do is meet somewhere in the middle and use a CSV with a 20 or 30 gallon tank. The advantage to that from what I can tell is the CSV will reduce the cycles on longer loads like a shower, and the decent sized tank will help reduce cycles from brief loads like brushing teeth or flushing the toilet.

Cary has a nice calculator here: http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/runtime_app.php that will tell you drawdown on tanks at different pressure setpoints and the cycles per day at different GPM,

Thank you, Nolan! That link was helpful. Here is the chart from that page with valve setting at 60 psi and cut in and out at 50 psi and 70 psi. I'm not sure how to figure out which size tank would best suit our needs. Any tips?
 

Dogwell

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I know it is a hard concept to understand, but the CSV with a 4.5 gallon tank will cycle the pump just exactly the same number of times per day for house use as a system with an 80 gallon tank and no CSV. Without a CSV the pump system will just cycle on and off continuously while water is being used for long periods of time like for showers, and not cycle very much for small uses of water like toilet flushes. While the CSV and small tank system will eliminate all cycles while using water for long periods of times, and cycle occasionally for the small uses. But the overall cycles per day will be the same.

Then if you have any real long term water uses like sprinklers, heat pumps, or drip systems, the CSV and small tank will only cause one cycle. Where a "so called properly sized pressure tank" system will cycle the pump on for one minute and off for one minute, which can add up to 720 cycles in a 24 hour day. 720 cycles verses 1 cycle is a big difference for long term uses of water.

With the CSV system, as long as more than 1 GPM is being used, there is ZERO cycling as the pump will run continuously. The water will go right past the tank straight to the shower or sprinkler, so the pump doesn't know if it is a 1 gallon or a million gallon pressure tank.

Actually the more people you have in the house, and the more water is being used, the smaller the tank can be when using a CSV. If you have enough people in the house that someone, somewhere is using water all day, the pump is running all day, and the size of the tank is a moot point. We find that is nursing homes and things like that people will use water heavily certain times of the day. So the pump may run continuous from 7AM to 1PM. Then it may come on a few time between 1PM and 6PM, and run continuous again from 6PM to 10PM.

The average system with the CSV and small tank will cycle the pump from 20 to 50 times per day, which is the same as the big tank method without a CSV. This is well below the pump manufacturers limits of 100-300 cycles per day. Now if you use the CSV with a large tank it will reduce the cycling to much less than the normal cycles per day for house use only. The average cycles per day will decrease from (20 to 50) down to (5 to 20) cycles per day. However, there is always a trade off. While using the CSV with a large tank will reduce the total number of cycles per day somewhat, it will not lengthen the life of the pump enough to justify the added expense of the large tank. Other disadvantages of the large tank include space and heat requirements, not to mention the taste of having your water sitting in a rubber bag for hours before being used. However, the biggest disadvantage of a large tank is low pressure. An 80 gallon tank holds about 25 gallons of water. But when using this 25 gallons the pressure will be decreasing from 60 all the way down to 40 before the pump is started. With the CSV and small tank, the 1 gallon in the 4.5 gallon size tank gets used very quickly when turning on a shower, and the strong constant 50 PSI will be maintained for the entire length of the shower.

Although holding 50 PSI constant may not seem that much different than when a pump is cycling on at 40 and off at 60, it certainly is. People tell me the pressure feels so much stronger they no longer even need soap in the shower, as the pressure just blast the dirt off of them.

Having said all of that, you can use the CSV with any size tank you want. If you already have a large tank, by all means use it. But I am sure you will like the stronger constant pressure from the CSV and small tank system. If you have to purchase a tank, just get the small tank, as you probably have many other uses for the money you can save by not purchasing one of those large expensive tanks.

Hi Cary. Please help me understand.

"While the CSV and small tank system will eliminate all cycles while using water for long periods of times, and cycle occasionally for the small uses. But the overall cycles per day will be the same."

With the small 4.5 gallon tank and CSV, there is a 1 gallon reserve so anytime there is a water demand greater than 1 gallon, the pump will turn on and stay on until the water needs are done. That is 1 cycle, right? So every time a toilet is flushed and hands are washed after, the pump will have 1 cycle. With a larger tank, the pump would not cycle for this toilet flush and hand wash example. So throughout the day if the toilet is used 20 times, there will be 20 additional cycles, right?

I'm aware that if the toilet use is combined with a shower or any other water use elsewhere than the pump will remain on continuously and reduce cycling. Although we have a lot of people in the house, we are not necessarily using water simultaneously. In our specific case, would a larger tank not be better to reduce cycle use than the 4.5 gallon tank? To be clear, I see the advantage of a CSV, but think for our needs it would be best used with a mid range tank (not a large 80 gallon), but not a small 4.5 gallon tank either. I cannot figure out which size would be best for our specific needs so that we are not adding more cycles with the individual water uses throughout the day that won't benefit from continuous use.
 

LLigetfa

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One flaw in the theory of a large tank satisfying a small draw without cycling is that you assume the tank is full to begin with which it seldom is when there is no CSV. Anytime you draw slower than the pump outputs, it will cycle but where within that cycle it is at the moment you turn off the water is anywhere.

With the CSV, as long as you use at least 1 GPM, the pump will stop when you stop using water, so you always have a full tank the next time you use water. If you want to use a slightly larger tank with the CSV, you certainly can. You can also narrow the delta between cut-in/cut-out so that you experience less fluctuation in pressure.
 

Dogwell

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One flaw in the theory of a large tank satisfying a small draw without cycling is that you assume the tank is full to begin with which it seldom is when there is no CSV. Anytime you draw slower than the pump outputs, it will cycle but where within that cycle it is at the moment you turn off the water is anywhere.

With the CSV, as long as you use at least 1 GPM, the pump will stop when you stop using water, so you always have a full tank the next time you use water. If you want to use a slightly larger tank with the CSV, you certainly can. You can also narrow the delta between cut-in/cut-out so that you experience less fluctuation in pressure.

Hi LLigetfa. Yes, I understand the tank won't be full everyone without a CSV, but overall there will be reduced cycles for the individual toilet or hand wash uses. Won't narrowing the delta increase the number of times the pump cycles with a tank? Do you have a suggestion for what size slightly larger tank would suit our needs?
 

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You've almost got it. Yes the pump will cycle for each of the 20 individual flushes. But if you flush 50 times in a row the pump stays running, so only 1 cycle. Or if you flush then wash hands and/or start a shower, only 1 cycle for everything. Then there is no cycling when you are using things like showers, which would normally cycle the pump maybe 5 times. So you save 20 cycles per day during 4 showers, which makes up for the 20 cycles per day for individual toilet flushes. The total number of cycles per day are still the same.

I can understand why you are thinking that way. 25 years ago I thought the CSV with a fairly big tank was the best way to go. After about 10 years of testing on tens of thousands of systems, we thought only a medium size tank was all that was needed. Then after 20 or so years of testing we have the history to show that a tiny tank is all that is needed with a CSV.

Here is what happens in cases where a person installs a CSV and a large tank as you are thinking. I will usually get a call from the homeowner saying they are not seeing the constant pressure as advertised. They say shower pressure is weak and decreasing, sinks don't spray like they should, washing machines take a long time to fill, etc, etc. I explain that they will not see the good strong constant pressure until the tank is empty, the pump starts, and the CSV is finally able to do its thing. They will usually say something like, "well that is probably why I get some really good pressure during the last part of my shower". Then they want to know what they have to do to get that kind of pressure all the time. The best answer is a smaller tank. But they already have the large tank and don't want to throw it away. So I help them try to reduce the pressure switch bandwidth from 50/70 to 60/70, and/or let some air out of the tank, so it is less efficient and holds less water. These things will make a big tank act like a small one. I have helped so many people do this over the years it has become tiresome. It is much easier to understand if you have experienced it, but I try to keep people from having to go through all that to finally get the constant pressure they want.

About the largest tank you can use and not experience long periods of low pressure is a 20 gallon size tank with a 5 gallon draw. I usually recommend this size tank when there are 3 to 10 houses on the same well pump. So if you think you have as much water use as 3 to 10 normal houses, a 20 gallon size tank is recommended.

As for the tank sizing calculator, it will not even give you a tank size unless you put in a continuous demand of less than the minimum flow through the CSV. If you put in a number for water use of over 1 GPM, it will tell you that tank size is a moot point as the CSV will make the pump run continuously anyway. If you put in 0.5 of a GPM, it is assuming you have a 1//2 of a gallon per minute leaking 24 hours a day. If you have a leak like this somewhere that you cannot find and fix, we recommend as large of a tank as you can afford or get through the door. A small leak is really the only reason to use a larger tank. But even then you can't afford to waste 700+- gallons per day. So as long as you don't let your toilet flappers leak, faucets drip, ignore those wet spots around the underground water line, or have as much use as 3 to 10 normal houses, you don't need a tank any larger than 4.5 gallon size.
 

Dogwell

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You've almost got it. Yes the pump will cycle for each of the 20 individual flushes. But if you flush 50 times in a row the pump stays running, so only 1 cycle. Or if you flush then wash hands and/or start a shower, only 1 cycle for everything. Then there is no cycling when you are using things like showers, which would normally cycle the pump maybe 5 times. So you save 20 cycles per day during 4 showers, which makes up for the 20 cycles per day for individual toilet flushes. The total number of cycles per day are still the same.

I can understand why you are thinking that way. 25 years ago I thought the CSV with a fairly big tank was the best way to go. After about 10 years of testing on tens of thousands of systems, we thought only a medium size tank was all that was needed. Then after 20 or so years of testing we have the history to show that a tiny tank is all that is needed with a CSV.

Here is what happens in cases where a person installs a CSV and a large tank as you are thinking. I will usually get a call from the homeowner saying they are not seeing the constant pressure as advertised. They say shower pressure is weak and decreasing, sinks don't spray like they should, washing machines take a long time to fill, etc, etc. I explain that they will not see the good strong constant pressure until the tank is empty, the pump starts, and the CSV is finally able to do its thing. They will usually say something like, "well that is probably why I get some really good pressure during the last part of my shower". Then they want to know what they have to do to get that kind of pressure all the time. The best answer is a smaller tank. But they already have the large tank and don't want to throw it away. So I help them try to reduce the pressure switch bandwidth from 50/70 to 60/70, and/or let some air out of the tank, so it is less efficient and holds less water. These things will make a big tank act like a small one. I have helped so many people do this over the years it has become tiresome. It is much easier to understand if you have experienced it, but I try to keep people from having to go through all that to finally get the constant pressure they want.

About the largest tank you can use and not experience long periods of low pressure is a 20 gallon size tank with a 5 gallon draw. I usually recommend this size tank when there are 3 to 10 houses on the same well pump. So if you think you have as much water use as 3 to 10 normal houses, a 20 gallon size tank is recommended.

As for the tank sizing calculator, it will not even give you a tank size unless you put in a continuous demand of less than the minimum flow through the CSV. If you put in a number for water use of over 1 GPM, it will tell you that tank size is a moot point as the CSV will make the pump run continuously anyway. If you put in 0.5 of a GPM, it is assuming you have a 1//2 of a gallon per minute leaking 24 hours a day. If you have a leak like this somewhere that you cannot find and fix, we recommend as large of a tank as you can afford or get through the door. A small leak is really the only reason to use a larger tank. But even then you can't afford to waste 700+- gallons per day. So as long as you don't let your toilet flappers leak, faucets drip, ignore those wet spots around the underground water line, or have as much use as 3 to 10 normal houses, you don't need a tank any larger than 4.5 gallon size.

"So you save 20 cycles per day during 4 showers, which makes up for the 20 cycles per day for individual toilet flushes. The total number of cycles per day are still the same."

But that wouldn't be the case with a large enough tank, right? With a 119 gallon tank, the drawdown is around 30 gallons which is effectively 1 cycle per shower (or 2 with a tank that's not full capacity to begin with), not 4. That still leaves increased cycles with a CSV and a 4.5 gallon tank for a family like ours as compared to a 110 gallon tank. If this isn't correct, please let me know what part I have misunderstood.

"About the largest tank you can use and not experience long periods of low pressure is a 20 gallon size tank with a 5 gallon draw. I usually recommend this size tank when there are 3 to 10 houses on the same well pump. So if you think you have as much water use as 3 to 10 normal houses, a 20 gallon size tank is recommended."

I don't understand the house equivalency usage here. Can you please explain? How does tank size relate to the number of houses? Would you say that a fair estimate of flushing a new toilet and washing hands leads is a 2.5 gallon draw? So in the ideal scenario starting with a full capacity 20 gallon tank, the pump would allow two toilet uses before starting. In a more realistic scenario with some water already being used up, the pump would start at every use, in which case there's no point in increasing to 20 gallons from 4.5 gallons. Is that right?

I want to get a CSV and need to replace my tank. I just need to figure out which size tank to get to avoid the pump starting at every flush and still take advantage of the constant pressure.

Can you please tell me if I were to get a separate tank, which parts I'd need and what the cost would be for the CSV?
 

LLigetfa

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I just need to figure out which size tank to get to avoid the pump starting at every flush and still take advantage of the constant pressure.
You may have missed where a larger tank will give you less pressure for longer while it is being drawn down unless you tighten the delta.
 

Dogwell

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You may have missed where a larger tank will give you less pressure for longer while it is being drawn down unless you tighten the delta.

I actually responded to your original comment a few hours ago. Please check. My response was

Won't narrowing the delta increase the number of times the pump cycles with a tank?
 

LLigetfa

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Yes of course it will. The question sounded rhetorical so did not need an answer. That is the remedy for having to suffer to less than ideal pressure while the large tank is drawing down.
 

Dogwell

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I'm sorry I am totally confused. Can you please tell me clearly what setup you suggest for our needs?
 

Nolan

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Cary is suggesting you use the 5 gallon tank with a CSV, your concern is that a single small load will cause the pump to cycle. Then Cary suggested that the largest tank that will keep you from experiencing prolonged low pressure before the pump kicks on is 20 gallon.

LLigetfa and Cary are suggesting if you go much larger than 20 gallon, to prevent the prolonged low pressure you would have to change the cut in and cut out to be much closer, which in turn reduces your drawdown. Essentially that would make your larger tank act like a smaller tank.

Let me know if I am messing any of this up guys, I am not a pro.
 

LLigetfa

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Let me know if I am messing any of this up
I say you got it right. I agree with Cary, that a large tank with wide delta will spend more time being below the "constant pressure".

Maybe the OP should run with higher cut-in and cut-out and use a pressure regulator to get constant pressure.
 

Wondering

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I say you got it right. I agree with Cary, that a large tank with wide delta will spend more time being below the "constant pressure".

Maybe the OP should run with higher cut-in and cut-out and use a pressure regulator to get constant pressure.
I say you got it right. I agree with Cary, that a large tank with wide delta will spend more time being below the "constant pressure".

Maybe the OP should run with higher cut-in and cut-out and use a pressure regulator to get constant pressure.
I would go with the 4.5 and see how that works out for you and the family. Then if you feel you need the 20 gallon also just add it along with the other one. I guess that would be ok.(two tanks). Have to ask Cary.
 

LLigetfa

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If I were as skeptical as the OP, I would go with a larger tank and narrow the delta by increasing the cut-in. Then if one wants to reduce the number of cycles, it is a simple matter of widening the delta.

In my case, the HP tank has to be large enough for contact time to precipitate the iron for the filter to trap it so a small tank is a no-go. I am not obsessed about the number of cycles. IMHO it is more about the run-time and rest-time so that the motor has time to cool between cycles.

My well uses a 240V pump and my backup generator is only 120V so when I have short power outages, I still have a reserve in the tank I can draw down. I use an electronic pressure switch which has better control over the delta than most mechanical switches.
 

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Nolan has it right that narrowing the pressure switch bandwidth would make a large tank act like a small one. That would just be wasting the extra money spent on the large tank. Plus a pressure switch that can do 10 PSI between on and off will cost more as well.

Wondering has a good idea to try the 4.5 gallon tank so you can see it in action, which will make it easier to understand. Then if you decide you want a larger tank you can just add a 20 gallon size tank anywhere after the CSV. You can even plumb the 20 gallon tank to a faucet and open the faucet. Since the 4.5 gallon tank is on the CSV and close to the pressure switch, an additional tank can be added anywhere in the plumbing past the CSV. Then you would have 24.5 gallons of tank size that would deliver about 6 gallons of drawdown.

It has always been said that a "properly sized tank" that will make the pump run for one minute and be off for one minute will reduce the pump cycles enough to make the pump last a long time. The only time this doesn't work is when using the pump for irrigation or something long term and using less than the maximum output of the pump. This would cause the pump to be destroyed from cycling on and off repeatedly for hours.

With a CSV you don't have to worry about running water at less than max pump output for long periods of time. The CSV will not let the pump cycle when using more than 1 GPM no matter what size tank you have. Add to that the fact that the CSV and 4.5 gallon size tank will cycle the pump the same number of times per day for house use only as a "properly sized pressure tank" without a CSV. Then it stands to reason that the CSV with the 4.5 gallon size tank will make the pump last just as long as the non CSV system with a larger tank as long as it has perfectly matched irrigation zones that don't cause cycling.

A lot of people will tell you that most pumps will last 20-30 years with a "properly sized pressure tank" and perfectly matched irrigation system. In the 25 years we have been using Cycle Stop Valves with small tanks, we have found they will last the same 20-30 years as the old style systems, and it doesn't even matter if the sprinkler system is sized to match the pump. It does stand to reason that the CSV with a large tank can reduce the cycles for house use even more. But I don't think it will make the pump systems last any longer than 20-30 years, as something besides cycling will probably cause the system to fail in that length of time. Even if the pump last more than 30 years, a wire will break, a pin hole will develop in a pipe, a check valve will fail, or something else will cause the system to stop making water. Plus I am now 57, if it last that long some one else will have to worry about it. :)
 

LLigetfa

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Plus I am now 57, if it last that long some one else will have to worry about it.
Oh to be that young again. I just renewed my passport, had the option of 5 or 10 years. I chose 10 but the wife said I wasted my money as I won't live that long.
 

Dogwell

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I would go with the 4.5 and see how that works out for you and the family. Then if you feel you need the 20 gallon also just add it along with the other one. I guess that would be ok.(two tanks). Have to ask Cary.

I am sure a 4.5 gallon will not suit our needs. It would increase cycles in our specific usage scenario, thereby defeating the whole point of a CSV. I also don't want to waste $ buying two tanks and paying for labor twice.
 
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