a simple question
- Thread starter JWelectric
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Mikey
Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
Close...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
[SIZE=-1]-- Arthur C. Clarke. "Technology and the Future". Report on Planet Three. 1972[/SIZE]
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Mikey
Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
Nope... not even close.I say, Hoax.
If it's not a hoax, it means I am assuming something that is not true.
Can you post a photo, on the assumption that words have failed me?
Mikey
Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
Correct.
Sorry, no. But it looks exactly as described, like an old-time piece of laboratory equipment. It's on a nicely-finished wooden board. The line cord is attached to two surface-mounted terminal posts. A wire goes from one post to one end of the knife switch. Another wire goes from the other end of the knife switch to one terminal on a surface-mounted ceramic socket, into which one bulb is screwed. Another wire goes from the other socket terminal to one terminal of the 2nd socket, etc.
Here's a hint, maybe. I was puzzled at first, but when everything behaved identically when the bulbs were swapped in their sockets, I knew immediately what the magic was.
Seaneys
New Member
I spend a lot of time deciphering analytical information. I make a decent living at it. I guess I could throw out degrees and certifications too, but I'm not sure that is important.
Your numbers are intriguing, but you have not tied them to fatalities or injuries of homeowners attempting to perform electrical work in their own premises. They are great numbers, but it's not possible to draw conclusions from them without additional detail.
I'm all ears if you have reliable stats that relate an increase in electrical deaths, fires, etc. to DIY activities. Did I miss something in your argument?
A lot of this type of information is public, Quite a bit is even online if you have access to a good academic data source. I did some checking do not see a reference.
Steve
Seaneys
New Member
Now that you have me digging.
Where did the 1300 come from? It is almost 3x higher than any reference I can find without using Lexis / Nexis.
Steve
JWelectric
Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Steve
The bottom line here is people are dying from something that can be prevented.
Someone good with numbers can manipulate numbers to make any statistic look the way they want it to so I just don’t put a lot of faith into them. OSHA has one set of numbers and AMA has another set of numbers.
All one has to do is pay a little attention to the type of questions being asked on these DIY forums and if they have any knowledge of heat energy at all they know that a lot of what a homeowner is trying is not good.
Every one of these DIY forums will deal out advice on how to trouble shoot a circuit. It doesn’t matter if the person doing the trouble shooting has any knowledge of the meter they are using or not the advice is posted for anyone to try.
Meters have ratings for the type of circuit and test being preformed. I have yet to read a post where this information is given to the one asking the question.
An inverse time circuit breaker can carry five times its rated current for up to 20 seconds. On a 15 amp breaker this would equate to over 10,000 watts of heat that would be allowed to pass through the body for 20 seconds. Do you understand what this kind of heat would do to the body? I truly hope that everyone asking for help understands the danger of working on a live electrical circuit.
Now if you want to play off the number of deaths and the number of DIY deaths it is okay with me but I just can’t see how the families of someone that died would much care about the numbers. To them the only number that counts is one.
The bottom line here is people are dying from something that can be prevented.
Someone good with numbers can manipulate numbers to make any statistic look the way they want it to so I just don’t put a lot of faith into them. OSHA has one set of numbers and AMA has another set of numbers.
All one has to do is pay a little attention to the type of questions being asked on these DIY forums and if they have any knowledge of heat energy at all they know that a lot of what a homeowner is trying is not good.
Every one of these DIY forums will deal out advice on how to trouble shoot a circuit. It doesn’t matter if the person doing the trouble shooting has any knowledge of the meter they are using or not the advice is posted for anyone to try.
Meters have ratings for the type of circuit and test being preformed. I have yet to read a post where this information is given to the one asking the question.
An inverse time circuit breaker can carry five times its rated current for up to 20 seconds. On a 15 amp breaker this would equate to over 10,000 watts of heat that would be allowed to pass through the body for 20 seconds. Do you understand what this kind of heat would do to the body? I truly hope that everyone asking for help understands the danger of working on a live electrical circuit.
Now if you want to play off the number of deaths and the number of DIY deaths it is okay with me but I just can’t see how the families of someone that died would much care about the numbers. To them the only number that counts is one.
Attachments
Just so you know, I can't find it either Steve.
I bet Mikey can find some stuff, he can find everything, how about it Mikey.
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Sjsmithjr
In the Trades
I got it from this thread, but I'll be happy to look into the numbers for you if you like.
For what it's worth, Steve, I'm not trying to take a dig at you. I merely wished to confirm your qualifications and experience with respect to electrical safety.
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Re: 1300, I thought CPSC said so.
I think 1300 is too low. I can't find those numbers anywhere. Given the big picture it seems really off.
I know one electrician alone who fell into a vat of steel at a mill where my husband was working a long time ago, I remember him always talking about how dangerous the jobs were there and how he got angry because they would not take the precautions they should had. There were many instances. Work-related those numbers have got to be high. They were alone when and where he was working.
Everyone jumps on a DIY'er, well the bottom line is those people don't take short cuts, they check, they ask, they check, they ask, before they actually do the work. I think, if anyone reads the posts that is pretty obvious. I would imagine those numbers are lower.
You can quote this or any of this, I don't care, but, when people get overly confident they can get sloppy and careless. Someone who is learning is very careful quite the opposite.
I know one electrician alone who fell into a vat of steel at a mill where my husband was working a long time ago, I remember him always talking about how dangerous the jobs were there and how he got angry because they would not take the precautions they should had. There were many instances. Work-related those numbers have got to be high. They were alone when and where he was working.
Everyone jumps on a DIY'er, well the bottom line is those people don't take short cuts, they check, they ask, they check, they ask, before they actually do the work. I think, if anyone reads the posts that is pretty obvious. I would imagine those numbers are lower.
You can quote this or any of this, I don't care, but, when people get overly confident they can get sloppy and careless. Someone who is learning is very careful quite the opposite.
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The page you linked to, said, it can not be displayed, the only thing there is something by Joe Tedesco, ( his, What is wrong with this picture?) is this what you wanted to show us?
Sjsmithjr
In the Trades
My apologies; it would seem that the link triggers some auto-editing.
Go to:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_************_home/
replace the asterisks "do it yourself", no spaces. If all else fails google "The Case of the Do-it-Yourself Home Electrocution".
In my opinion, it is a must read for aspiring DIY electricians. It is a story about a man who, by taking a home improvement project into his own hands, set the stage for his pregnant wife’s death.
A tragic and completely avoidable death.
Go to:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_************_home/
replace the asterisks "do it yourself", no spaces. If all else fails google "The Case of the Do-it-Yourself Home Electrocution".
In my opinion, it is a must read for aspiring DIY electricians. It is a story about a man who, by taking a home improvement project into his own hands, set the stage for his pregnant wife’s death.
A tragic and completely avoidable death.
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Can't find that article.
But, did find this one:
The Case of the Houseboat Electrocution
Oct 1, 2008 12:00 PM, By Andrew Paris, P.E., Anderson Engineering
Damaged neutral on faulty light fixture and reverse polarity spell disaster for families’ day of water fun at the lake.
Now that one wasn't from a DIYer. And, totally unavoidable as well, if not more so.
But, did find this one:
The Case of the Houseboat Electrocution
Oct 1, 2008 12:00 PM, By Andrew Paris, P.E., Anderson Engineering
Damaged neutral on faulty light fixture and reverse polarity spell disaster for families’ day of water fun at the lake.
Now that one wasn't from a DIYer. And, totally unavoidable as well, if not more so.
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Sjsmithjr
In the Trades
I shall try one last time to link to the article.
http://www.americanbusinessmedia.com/images/abm/pdfs/events/neal_library/EC&M--Class B Cat 4--3.pdf
Well, that only get's you to the first page. Here's the ending:
"The investigation showed that the electrocution was most likely an accident, and the husband was spared from criminal prosecution. However, he wasn't completely relieved of responsibility. Not only did he fail to secure a permit for the work in his shower or have it inspected, thereby violating state and local laws, he had no formal training in electrical system construction. Although he wasn't directly involved with the electrocution, his disregard for electrical safety and proper installation rules no doubt played an indirect role in his wife's death."
I shall now bid you adieu with a wish that each and everyone of you stays safe.
http://www.americanbusinessmedia.com/images/abm/pdfs/events/neal_library/EC&M--Class B Cat 4--3.pdf
Well, that only get's you to the first page. Here's the ending:
"The investigation showed that the electrocution was most likely an accident, and the husband was spared from criminal prosecution. However, he wasn't completely relieved of responsibility. Not only did he fail to secure a permit for the work in his shower or have it inspected, thereby violating state and local laws, he had no formal training in electrical system construction. Although he wasn't directly involved with the electrocution, his disregard for electrical safety and proper installation rules no doubt played an indirect role in his wife's death."
I shall now bid you adieu with a wish that each and everyone of you stays safe.
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JWelectric
Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Etiology
Approximately 20% of all electrical injuries occur in children, with a bimodal peak incidence highest in toddlers and adolescents. Most electrical injuries that occur in children are at home, with extension cords (60-70%) and wall outlets (10-15%) being by far the most common sources in this age group. Electrical burns account for 2-3% of all burns in children that require emergency room care.
In adults, most electrical injuries happen at the workplace and constitute the fourth leading cause of work-related traumatic death. One third of all electrical traumas and most high-voltage injuries are job related. More than 50% of these occupational electrocutions result from power line contact (5-6% of all work-related deaths), and 25% result from using electrical tools or machines. The annual occupational death rate from electricity is 1 death per 100,000 workers, with a male-to-female ratio of 9:1.
This can be seen by clicking here
If you can imagine 18 100 watt bulbs in one tight area that is how much heat energy a 15 amp circuit is designed to hold on a continuous load.
If you can imagine a hundred 100 watt light bulbs in one area that is how much heat energy that a 15 amp circuit will hold for a few seconds,
It is not the person doing something that the knowledgeable fears but instead the danger involved. It is not how careful the DIYer is but the knowledge the DIyer lacks.
I have been in this field for over 40 years and in the classroom for about 10 of those years and I can tell you that it is not how careful the DIYer is but the knowledge he/she doesn’t have that causes them to be hurt or hurting someone else.
We can post all the numbers of how many are hurt and killed till the cows come home but I won’t give that person without some type of formal training the knowledge they need to attempt some of the things I see here on this site from time to time.
Another aspect of this danger that has not been discussed yet is the number of electrical deaths that are attributed to something else. A person gets a shock today and dies two to three days from now. The death is ruled heart failure. In reality the heat made the blood clot and it took that long to hit the heart. Someone in a pool or bath tub that died by drowning. The electrical shock caused them to take a deep breath which filled the lungs with water.
Both of these have been documented by the Medical Association of America.
I just don’t know how to convince some of you the danger involved in electricity as long as blinders keep you looking in one direction.
As many can attest I have done a lot to help many on these sites and have always been first to say, you should hire a professional when I thought they were in over their heads.
I quote code a lot simply due to the fact that the NEC is a minimum safety code. To do anything less than what the code call for is to do something unsafe. The code itself makes this statement in the Introduction.
90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
There is a big difference in helping someone do something when you can be present to watch over their work and when you are answering questions over the internet.
Approximately 20% of all electrical injuries occur in children, with a bimodal peak incidence highest in toddlers and adolescents. Most electrical injuries that occur in children are at home, with extension cords (60-70%) and wall outlets (10-15%) being by far the most common sources in this age group. Electrical burns account for 2-3% of all burns in children that require emergency room care.
In adults, most electrical injuries happen at the workplace and constitute the fourth leading cause of work-related traumatic death. One third of all electrical traumas and most high-voltage injuries are job related. More than 50% of these occupational electrocutions result from power line contact (5-6% of all work-related deaths), and 25% result from using electrical tools or machines. The annual occupational death rate from electricity is 1 death per 100,000 workers, with a male-to-female ratio of 9:1.
This can be seen by clicking here
Cookie, I don’t think that anyone is jumping on someone that is trying to do something their self but instead is just trying to point out that some things a person should not even attempt to try without some proper training. One of these is testing a live circuit.
If you can imagine 18 100 watt bulbs in one tight area that is how much heat energy a 15 amp circuit is designed to hold on a continuous load.
If you can imagine a hundred 100 watt light bulbs in one area that is how much heat energy that a 15 amp circuit will hold for a few seconds,
It is not the person doing something that the knowledgeable fears but instead the danger involved. It is not how careful the DIYer is but the knowledge the DIyer lacks.
I totally agree that the trained person does get overly confident and that is why so many ends up hurt daily. I also agree that the trained doing the dangerous work is what adds confidence into those that have no knowledge as they want to do as they see others do.
I have been in this field for over 40 years and in the classroom for about 10 of those years and I can tell you that it is not how careful the DIYer is but the knowledge he/she doesn’t have that causes them to be hurt or hurting someone else.
We can post all the numbers of how many are hurt and killed till the cows come home but I won’t give that person without some type of formal training the knowledge they need to attempt some of the things I see here on this site from time to time.
Another aspect of this danger that has not been discussed yet is the number of electrical deaths that are attributed to something else. A person gets a shock today and dies two to three days from now. The death is ruled heart failure. In reality the heat made the blood clot and it took that long to hit the heart. Someone in a pool or bath tub that died by drowning. The electrical shock caused them to take a deep breath which filled the lungs with water.
Both of these have been documented by the Medical Association of America.
I just don’t know how to convince some of you the danger involved in electricity as long as blinders keep you looking in one direction.
As many can attest I have done a lot to help many on these sites and have always been first to say, you should hire a professional when I thought they were in over their heads.
I quote code a lot simply due to the fact that the NEC is a minimum safety code. To do anything less than what the code call for is to do something unsafe. The code itself makes this statement in the Introduction.
90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
There is a big difference in helping someone do something when you can be present to watch over their work and when you are answering questions over the internet.
I saw that one in EC & M. One guy was prevented from drowning because he couldn't release his grip on a live conductor.
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_************_home/
in this shower incident link I still don't see why the GFI didn't immediately trip.
What an awful way to die.
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Sjsmithjr
In the Trades
Since you asked - it had to do the construction of the drop lamp and condition of the drop lamp, which should not have been used in that location. It's in the full article if you get a chance to read it. Had it not been for the suspicious nature of her death, it might well have been attributed to other causes, as noted by JW.
Guys - it's been nice talking to you, but this thread has reminded of too many things I wished that I hadn't seen or had to deal with. Some related to electrical work, most having to do with inexperience and lack of training.
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Frenchie
Jack of all trades
Joe T once posted a video, where he dropped a hair drier into a sink full of water, and the GFI didn't trip. I'll see if I can dig up the link...
Basically, there wasn't a ground path. To the GFI, everything's fine if the short isn't grounded, they work by detecting any difference in outgoing & returning current... no leakage of current, no trip.
What he explained to me, about that video, was that if he stuck his hand in the water, THEN the gfi'd trip.
...
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