Water Softener Help

[Reach4]

Here are the numbers on this setup. The softened water tests at zero hardness. I suspect it is over softened. How does one fine tune the system for optimal performance?

What do you mean by optimum? Would you like to set it to use a little less salt? Zero hardness is not bad. Start using less soap.

System info
salt lb/cuft on't know how to set this up and how many bags of salt and how often should be added ;

Pour in as many bags as you like, and lift the lid and look often enough that you don't let the salt fall so low that it is all below water. I don't fill my brine tank full, but I look maybe once per month. Some fill higher. I think that when new, it might be good to watch how it goes, but that is not necessary.

A
BLFC : Not sure how to set this up ; Brine Refill rate GPM

This is not a number that you enter into the softener, but it is a number used in calculation of the brine fill BF and the capacity C. 6 is at the lower end of the salt usage commonly used. Actually, this may be a flaw in the numbers I posted. My BLFC is 0.125. I don't know where I got the 0.25 number for yours, but it is a reasonable number. Looking back, I don't see where you posted that. If there is no other indication, it would be good to ask your dealer what yours is. There are other ways to learn the number.

Finding out the BLFC is your action item.

cubic ft resin : 2.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 21 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day 240.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen Don't know how to figure out. I don't think this meter can track this data. I would like it to regen every 14 days. ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

You don't need to figure out the number. With the settings I listed, the softener will watch your usage and come up with a number. It may take a couple weeks, because it can be pessimistic initially. If you want to enter a reserve capacity yourself, you can. I did that with mine.

That estimated days was just an estimate and is not programmed in.

To meet your wish for 14 days, change DO (day override) to DO=14. That puts an upper limit on the time between regenerations. If you use a lot of water, regen will happen sooner.

But why 14 days? If you are away or just using less water, why not let the time go longer like up to 28 days? The metering will watch when you have used enough water that you should regenerate tonight to avoid running out of hard water tomorrow.

 

[Bannerman]

The BLFC (brine line flow control) rate, is often specified on a label located nearby to the brine tube connection, This is the refill rate for the brine tank, typically 0.125, 0.25, 0.5 or 1 gallon per minute. The refill rate is controlled by a restrictor button (disk with a specific size hole in the centre) located within the BLFC Assembly within the control valve.

The BF setting is the refill time in minutes. The number of minutes X the BLFC rate is the amount of water to refill the brine tank. Each 1 gallon of water will dissolve 3 lbs salt (aka: salt dose). The salt dose determines the amount of softening capacity that will be restored during the regeneration cycle.

Since your softener measures the quantity of soft water used, regeneration will be initiated when the volume of water corresponding to the programmed capacity and hardness settings, has been utilized.

The DO setting is the maximum number of days between regeneration cycles, in case the softener meter does not initiate a regen within that time period.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Rmk9785e]

What do you mean by optimum? Would you like to set it to use a little less salt? Zero hardness is not bad. Start using less soap.

By optimal performance I meant not adding excessive amount of Sodium beyond what is needed to remove hardness. Is it even possible? The water gives a 'slippery' feeling when washing hands as if soap doesn't get off.

Pour in as many bags as you like, and lift the lid and look often enough that you don't let the salt fall so low that it is all below water. I don't fill my brine tank full, but I look maybe once per month. Some fill higher. I think that when new, it might be good to watch how it goes, but that is not necessary.

I may have erroneously assumed that salt concentration in the brine tank may vary based upon the amount of salt dumped in it. But as Bannerman point out, "Each 1 gallon of water will dissolve 3 lbs salt".
I don't see dry salt in the brine tank. When starting up, I added four 50 lb bags of salt and one bag is being added every month. It looks like slush.
Maybe I'm overthinking about it and the system is smart enough to recognize salt concentration and use what is needed.

Finding out the BLFC is your action item.

I'll check the label as Bannerman advised and if it's not there then inquire from the manufacturer.

To meet your wish for 14 days, change DO (day override) to DO=14. That puts an upper limit on the time between regenerations. If you use a lot of water, regen will happen sooner.

But why 14 days? If you are away or just using less water, why not let the time go longer like up to 28 days? The metering will watch when you have used enough water that you should regenerate tonight to avoid running out of hard water tomorrow.

You're correct. I don't need to force it to regen after 14 or any number of days and let it do it based upon usage.

Thank you all for patience and educating a newbie in water softening.

 

[Bannerman]

I added four 50 lb bags of salt and one bag is being added every month. It looks like slush.

Depending on the brine tank size, sounds as though there maybe too much water refilling the brine tank. If more brine is created than necessary to restore the capacity used, then salt is being wasted. This would be similar to overfilling your car with fuel, with the excess flowing onto the pavement.

One method to verify the BLFC flow rate, would be to disconnect the brine line at the top of the brine tank, advance the controller to Brine Fill, and measure the volume of water flowing from the hose in 1 minute. If the BLFC rate is 0.25 gpm, that is what you should expect. If 0.5 gpm ...

What is the current BF setting, and, what is the current 'C' (capacity) and hardness settings?

 

[Rmk9785e]

Depending on the brine tank size, sounds as though there maybe too much water refilling the brine tank. If more brine is created than necessary to restore the capacity used, then salt is being wasted. This would be similar to overfilling your car with fuel, with the excess flowing onto the pavement.

I may have put too much water at startup. I thought it would use only as much as it needs.

What is the current BF setting, and, what is the current 'C' (capacity) and hardness settings?

BF =12
C\V = 36
H = 23

 

[Reach4]

I may have put too much water at startup. I thought it would use only as much as it needs.


BF =12
C\V = 36
H = 23

OK... I was wondering where my confusion came from this time. I see now on #59 that I had posted "Here is an example setup for a softener that is not yours:". So what we need is info on your system if you want programming info.


How big is your tank height and diameter or circumference. What controller do you have?
What is the DLFC. How many people or how many gallons (that may not matter for programming but only for forecasting how often the unit would regenerate). So in other words, let's start fresh. Maybe that would be best done on a new thread where you describe the system etc. All in one place would be nice.

 

[Rmk9785e]

OK....... So what we need is info on your system if you want programming info.

How big is your tank height and diameter or circumference. What controller do you have?
What is the DLFC. How many people or how many gallons (that may not matter for programming but only for forecasting how often the unit would regenerate). So in other words, let's start fresh. Maybe that would be best done on a new thread where you describe the system etc. All in one place would be nice.

Post #60 contains my current numbers.
There are four adults in the house and daily water use ranges from 60-80 gallons/person.
Model: 5810STX
Media Size: 2 cu ft
Media Type: 10% cross-linked resin
Tank: 12” x 52”

The brine tank is 18"x33".
The softener is in series with a carbon filter of the same dimensions and same meter.

Should I start a new thread?

 

[Reach4]

ost #60 contains my current numbers.
There are four adults in the house and daily water use ranges from 60-80 gallons/person.
Model: 5810STX
Media Size: 2 cu ft
Media Type: 10% cross-linked resin
Tank: 12” x 52”

We are into it, so might as well do it here. In #60, you showed C=36 and BF=12. So are the numbers under "SOFTENER Fleck 5810SXT Settings: " the way it arrived?

That would imply a 0.25 BLFC. If you don't have the original C and BF settings, you should probably determine the BLFC.

Note that #60 is edited from a 2.5 cubic ft softener setup, and your softener is 2.0 cubic ft.

 

[Bannerman]

I may have put too much water at startup. I thought it would use only as much as it needs.

As the Brine Draw setting is 60 minutes duration, all of the liquid should be drawn from the brine tank within approx 15 minutes of that time. The remaining 45 minutes, is used for slowly pushing brine through the resin and rinsing the brine out to drain.

Even if too much water was placed in the brine tank initially, that volume of liquid should be consumed during the 1st full regeneration cycle so water contained afterwards, will be new liquid in the amount as programmed by BF and DLFC.

 

[Rmk9785e]

We are into it, so might as well do it here. In #60, you showed C=36 and BF=12. So are the numbers under "SOFTENER Fleck 5810SXT Settings: " the way it arrived?

That would imply a 0.25 BLFC. If you don't have the original C and BF settings, you should probably determine the BLFC.

Thank you for your guidance. It has been more than a month and I can't recall with certainty. I think I left all settings "the way it arrived" except the H setting and time of regeneration.
I will be on site tomorrow in the evening and will record all settings & determine BLFC. I'll then share this information.
As it is set now, softened water feels slippery as if soap has not washed off.

 

[ditttohead]

.25 is the most common for the5810sxt. Their will be a sticker near the brine line and on a white sticker on the backplate under the cover.

 

[Reach4]

.25 is the most common for the5810sxt. Their will be a sticker near the brine line and on a white sticker on the backplate under the cover.

That's easier!

However I am now thinking that checking would not require removing pressure, as long as you were not checking during backwash. I did not bother, since the behavior of the softener is as I have expected.

 

[Rmk9785e]

We are into it, so might as well do it here. In #60, you showed C=36 and BF=12. So are the numbers under "SOFTENER Fleck 5810SXT Settings: " the way it arrived?

That would imply a 0.25 BLFC. If you don't have the original C and BF settings, you should probably determine the BLFC.

There was no marking but per directions from dittohead, I found a label on the back plate under the valve cover and the BLFC & DLFC information is included below along with the current settings. I've placed red question marks on values I am unaware of.

Media = 10% Cross Link Resin, 2 ft3. 12x52 tank
Media volume: 2.00 ft3
Salt dosage: ?? lbs/ft3
BLFC size: 1.25gpm
DLFC size: 3.5 gpm
Injector: 2
Capacity: ????? grains

DF = GAL
VT = 5810
RF = dF1b
CT = Fd
C = 36
H = 24 gpG (water test shows 21/22)
RS = rc
RC = 200
DO = 28
RT = 2:00 AM
BW = 10
BD = 6
RR = 10
BF = 12
FM = t1.2
RE = Off
VR = Off

So far, I've only changed H, RT and DO. Everything else is as it arrived. My objective is to have close to zero hardness without unnecessarily wasting salt or water. I'll appreciate advice to fine tune it further.

Another question - Mortan salt for water softeners is available in two shapes, crystals or pellets, which form is preferable?

 

[Reach4]

I presume your BLFC size is 0.25 rather than 1.25gpm
You softener is set up to use (salt dosage) 4.5 pounds of salt per cubic ft. That is less salt than is commonly used, and I think that it has been mandated by California rules/law. I think it is optimistic to use C=36.0, and 12 minutes.

I would tend to use 6 pounds per cubic ft, but you are saying that your water seems over-softened. So if it is softened enough as it is, leave it as it is. It looks very good as it is now if you want to meet the Calif rules. What I would be going to would be using more salt than your current readings. I would set mine to use at least 6 pounds of salt per cubic ft. Here is a table of pairs of C and BF for you, with the bold numbers being the ones that are usually preferred to balance hardness leakage vs salt usage:

BLFC = 0.25
cubic ft resin = 2

lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
4 ; 30.4 ; 11
5 ; 36.4 ; 13
6 ; 40.0 ; 16
7 ; 44.1 ; 19
8 ; 48.0 ; 21
9 ; 51.3 ; 24


The other number you might play with is RC=200. That means to use 200 gallons as the reserve. You could change the reserve to be adjusted automatically, or just change the 200. For the automatic, use
RS = cr [ Cr = controller will base reserve on recent experience ]
That would make the RC entry disappear.

 

[Rmk9785e]

I presume your BLFC size is 0.25 rather than 1.25gpm
You softener is set up to use (salt dosage) 4.5 pounds of salt per cubic ft. That is less salt than is commonly used, and I think that it has been mandated by California rules/law. I think it is optimistic to use C=36.0, and 12 minutes.

I would tend to use 6 pounds per cubic ft, but you are saying that your water seems over-softened. So if it is softened enough as it is, leave it as it is. It looks very good as it is now if you want to meet the Calif rules. What I would be going to would be using more salt than your current readings. I would set mine to use at least 6 pounds of salt per cubic ft. Here is a table of pairs of C and BF for you, with the bold numbers being the ones that are usually preferred to balance hardness leakage vs salt usage:

BLFC = 0.25
cubic ft resin = 2

lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
4 ; 30.4 ; 11
5 ; 36.4 ; 13
6 ; 40.0 ; 16
7 ; 44.1 ; 19
8 ; 48.0 ; 21
9 ; 51.3 ; 24


The other number you might play with is RC=200. That means to use 200 gallons as the reserve. You could change the reserve to be adjusted automatically, or just change the 200. For the automatic, use
RS = cr [ Cr = controller will base reserve on recent experience ]
That would make the RC entry disappear.

My mistake. Your assumption about BLFC is correct. If I understand you correctly, salt usage is determined by C and BF. I would like us to remain within my state's guidelines.
I will change RS to let the controller determine it.
While testing the softened water, it turns blue with the first drop. Water feels silky as if there is still soap on the body. That is different from my own home where hardness tests around 3 without being softened. (Please see post #11 here.)

 

[Bannerman]

Water feels silky as if there is still soap on the body.

What you're feeling is your skin's natural oils without the residue resulting from hard water. Hardness in water will combine with soap, detergent etc, to create sticky curds (soap scum) which will adhere to skin, just as it does to the sides of the bathtub.

With a softener, remember to reduce the amount of soap, detergents, shampoo, fabric softener etc, likely to half or less of the amount usually used before the softener.

Most people will usually become accustomed to the feeling in short order, and often will feel less clean if bathing in water containing hardness.

 

[Rmk9785e]

Here is a table of pairs of C and BF for you, with the bold numbers being the ones that are usually preferred to balance hardness leakage vs salt usage:

BLFC = 0.25
cubic ft resin = 2

lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
4 ; 30.4 ; 11
5 ; 36.4 ; 13
6 ; 40.0 ; 16
7 ; 44.1 ; 19
8 ; 48.0 ; 21
9 ; 51.3 ; 24

Where may I find this table or the formulas for these numbers?
If C is capacity in gpG, Where do I find the capacity of this softener? Does it vary by the minutes of brine fill?
Amount of salt used is not much of a concern. If anything, I would want to conserve the amount of water used for regeneration.

 

[Bannerman]

Depending on brand, most resin is manufactured with a standard total capacity of 32,000 grains per cuft. Your 2 cuft softener would therefore have 64,000 grains total capacity when manufactured.

As resin can become damaged and worn through handling and by being regenerated over time, broken and light weight beads will usually be flushed to drain during backwash. Since some capacity loss should be anticipated, most 2 cuft softeners would be considered in practice to have 60,000 maximum 'total' capacity over the life of the resin.

To regenerate all 60K grains in a 2 cuft softener, would require a large and inefficient quantity of salt. 30 lbs salt would be required each regen cycle, resulting in a maximum salt efficiency of only 2,000 grains per pound.

The 'C' is the maximum 'usable' capacity setting programmed to cause regeneration to occur.

With a 2 cuft softener, if 'C' is set to 48, then 48,000 grains would be the maximum capacity consumed before regeneration will occur. Although there will be 12K grains capacity remaining of the total, that remaining capacity assists to deliver soft water at a reasonable flow rate, right up to when regeneration occurs. To regenerate 48K in a 2 cuft unit, would require only 16 lbs salt, thereby resulting in an efficient max salt efficiency of 3,000 grains per pound.

Likewise, a 'C' setting of 40, would require 12 lbs salt, resulting in a further increase in max salt efficiency to 3,333 grains/lb.

Since so many people utilized inefficient salt settings and timed regen cycles where softeners regenerated even when not required, this has resulted in salt pollution concerns in some areas, causing some municipalities to oppose softeners, or at least require metered controls and more efficient salt settings than usually recommended. Many parts of California are such.

The usual recommended salt settings for your unit are 12 lbs/40 or 16 lbs/48. The 12 lb dose will provide slightly higher efficiency but also slightly higher hardness leakage and more frequent regeneration. The 16 lb dose should result in slightly softer (higher quality) water and less frequent regen cycles.

 

[Reach4]

There are some graphs you can find. I am away at the moment.

I will say that using 6 pounds/cuft will use less water and more salt than 4.5 will. 8 pounds/cuft will use less water and more salt than 6 will.

Even in Calif, the regen water will cost less than the salt.

I would go to 6 initially, and if you are comforted that it uses a little less water than the current settings, good enough.

 

[Rmk9785e]

Thank you Reach4 and Bannerman
Yours are some of the clearest explanations I've read on the subject. This form provides a wealth of information. I am much better educated.
Merry Christmas and happy holidays.