Water Softener Help

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Reach4

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However, I estimate about 5 each can be attributed to a dripping tub faucet. It is a very slow drip, but never stops.
If this is an older faucet with separate hot and cold controls, this can be pretty easy. You want to replace the seat as well as the washer. Look for a seat wrench.
 

eh101

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It does have separate hot and cold, I don't have any idea how old it is. It is also up for replacement due to being trashed by the water hardness. I am going to try to save it as it is a nice fixture, but the bronze finish appears to be lifting from the underlying structure. Almost flaking off. If that makes sense.
 

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I am going to try to save it as it is a nice fixture, but the bronze finish appears to be lifting from the underlying structure. Almost flaking off. If that makes sense.
You might want to post a picture in the Plumbing forum for advice on that. I guess you are not the original owner of that faucet.
 

eh101

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You might want to post a picture in the Plumbing forum for advice on that. I guess you are not the original owner of that faucet.

I am not, just now getting to treating the water after 1 year of ownership here. Had other, more pressing issues to contend with first. Only a couple fixtures have this sort of damage, so I guess it was one of the unlucky ones to not be replaced when the previous owner put in whatever softener they had.
 

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As for the Catalytic Carbon back washing filter

just curious how such a thing would be calculated
Sizing would be based upon the flow rate required. As you mentioned Chloramine, that chemical is much more difficult to remove compared to plain old chlorine.

Catalytic carbon is more effective than GAC for chloramine reduction but the quantity of media needs to be sufficient to provide adequate contact time with the media for the chemical removal process to occur. A larger filter (larger tank diameter) will not only allow for a higher volume of media but the flow through the filter tank will also be slower than the same flow rate through a smaller diameter tank, thereby providing increased media contact time.

A 2 cuft catalytic back washing filter will effectively support up to approx 5 gpm which I expect will be adequate for your requirements. If the flow rate is exceeded, some chloramine may 'leak' through the filter but the amount will be far lower than the strength you are currently dealing with. If you expect higher flow requirements on a regular basis, you may wish to consider a larger filter with a greater volume of catalytic carbon.
 
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eh101

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[QUOTE="Bannerman, post: 493383, member: 64443"A 2 cuft catalytic filter will effectively support up to approx 5 gpm which I expect will be adequate for your requirements.[/QUOTE]

Can you provide guidance on what flow rates can be handled with different sizes? Like: 2 cu ft ~ 5gpm. 2.5 cu ft ~?

The only time this is really an issue is during a shower. Only takes a couple minutes to become irritating. I'm going to see if I can get a 5 gal bucket on something in there to try to estimate the flow rate. If it's a ridiculous rate, I might just replace the head with a lower flow design.

I already know the bathtub at full tilt fills a 5 gal bucket in about 51 seconds. But that thing is rarely used anyway.
 

Reach4

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I'm going to see if I can get a 5 gal bucket on something in there to try to estimate the flow rate. If it's a ridiculous rate, I might just replace the head with a lower flow design.
There is a showerhead flow rate federal standard of 2.5 gpm maximum, as specified by the Energy Policy Act of 1992. If you have an older showerhead with a high rate, somebody might want to buy it used.
 
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[QUOTE="Bannerman, post: 493383, member: 64443"A 2 cuft catalytic filter will effectively support up to approx 5 gpm which I expect will be adequate for your requirements.

Can you provide guidance on what flow rates can be handled with different sizes? Like: 2 cu ft ~ 5gpm. 2.5 cu ft ~?

The only time this is really an issue is during a shower. Only takes a couple minutes to become irritating. I'm going to see if I can get a 5 gal bucket on something in there to try to estimate the flow rate. If it's a ridiculous rate, I might just replace the head with a lower flow design.

I already know the bathtub at full tilt fills a 5 gal bucket in about 51 seconds. But that thing is rarely used anyway.[/QUOTE]

How many are you in your household? And how often do you really use the water in your shower?

The Fleck 5600 SXT is actually a good choice for a typical family of 5-6 people.

I don't suggest using the other saltless models specially if you have very high level of water hardness in your home.
 

ditttohead

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The 5600SXT is a good choice for most plumbing systems up to 3/4" and many 1" applications. The valve has a limited backwash capability so larger carbon tanks should be calculated based on water temperature/backwash rate etc. Flow rates should not be based on the number of people but rather the actual fixture count. This is a code compliance issue that can get very difficult when sizing equipment for larger houses.

The 2 Cu Ft 5 GPM is the service flow. The system will flow much more water but the medias effectiveness will be diminished as the flow increases.

Most systems have a "service" flow and a "peak" flow. Service is the flow at which the media remains effective, peak is the flow rate that the system will allow with either a 15 or 25 PSI drop across the unit, depending on which company is making the spec. A 10"x54" GAC 5600SXT is typically rated for a peak flow of approximately 15 gpm.

Hope this helps.
 

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On the topic of Water Softener help, these are questions from the perspective of novice users:

Softener efficiency (grains removed/pound of salt) is not listed on specifications. How does one find it out?

Similarly, where to find the Service Flow Rate of the advertised units?

How much salt would typically be used every month?

Does the brine tank have to be checked manually or is there a way to have an indicator that salt needs to be added?

Is there an option to have Fleck 5810 series valves connected, programmed and monitored using a computer or smart phone?

What is the maintenance frequency of the softener and catalytic carbon filter units and what does it involve?
 

ditttohead

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Softener efficiency (grains removed/pound of salt) is not listed on specifications. How does one find it out? this varies wildly by manufacturer but all systems can be programmed for different efficiencies/quality of water. Compare it to a car, you can get a mini hybrid that gets amazing gas mileage but sucks to drive. You can get a dodge charger... fun and fast but horrible fuel efficiency. Or something in between. In general we program the systems for something in between. This provides good quality soft water and good efficiency. it is much more complex than that but in general, almost all system can be programmed for ultra high sat efficiency or ultra soft water, not both. Here is a page that goes the efficiency vs. quality. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/66-67


Similarly, where to find the Service Flow Rate of the advertised units? Service flow is very open ended, most of these ratings are based on commercial applications where the systems will see heavy use and a certain longevity is to be expected. Don't read too much into these numbers for residential applications. Peak flow rate is how much the system can give you at an estimated pressure drop. Peak should only occur rarely, do not size systems based on peak flow rates. Here is a good example of peak vs flow for 5810 softeners and carbon systems. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/44-45


How much salt would typically be used every month? hardness of 20 grains, 4 people, system set efficiently, estimate 1 bag per month. highly variable...

Does the brine tank have to be checked manually or is there a way to have an indicator that salt needs to be added? Fill it and check it every 6 months, electronic salt level detectors are being worked on but in general are much more problematic than they are worth. I have a couple of new prototypes in my facility, these may work but we are at least another 6 months to a year away. The ones that are currently on the market are no good.

Is there an option to have Fleck 5810 series valves connected, programmed and monitored using a computer or smart phone? First off... why? It is a major appliance that should be manufactured to a quality level that allows you to ignore it for years other than adding salt. The XTR2 can be connected to a computer and you can download the data from the valve to see daily water usage etc... this is a neat function but out of the thousands we seel each year I have only seen one homeowner who has used this function, and it got boring after the first month so he hasn't used it since. Do you really want your softener buzzing your phone to ell you it may or may not be out of salt? it is a non critical piece of equipment. We do have BMS connectivity, HMI, etc available but this is really meant for industrial applications where the water treatment is absolutely critical.

What is the maintenance frequency of the softener and catalytic carbon filter units and what does it involve? Fill the brine tank with salt, clean the brine tank every few years. Carbon system, rebed the carbon every 3-7 years inmost residential applications.
 

Reach4

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Similarly, where to find the Service Flow Rate of the advertised units?
From Gary Slusser's old site:
The SFR in gpm is: 1.0 cuft = 9, 1.25 = 10, 1.5' = 12, 2.0' = 13, 2.5' = 18, 3.0' = 20, 3.5' = 22 gpm, 4.0 = 25.​
 

ditttohead

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Service flow rates on a softener have too many variables to make any real recommendation for residential applications. In general for residential use 10 GPM per ft3 is fine... this should be intermittent. lower flow rates are preferred.
 

intel2020

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My $.02 on the Fleck 5810XTR2....

I have the XTR2 valve and connect it to a spare laptop to save the configuration and see other specs from time to time. The valve must be manually enabled to go into the "Application Mode" while Windows app is running and connected via USB port on valve/USB port on computer. I for one, WOULD like to have this information in a format that tracks water usage (real-time and over time) and regens over time -- as has been seen in other utilities like electricity. As more devices/appliances telemetry data can be collected, I would like to see this information or have the ability to have the data sent real or near real time. I am working on a workaround that has an automated script running on the PC, detects when new data arrives in the Fleck app (sees a screen change on PC/App, collects info, inserts data into a google sheet, then closes done). However, the limitation is that a physical push of the touch screen (a couple) is needed to command the valve into that mode. Well dittohead, I guess I am the 2nd person you know that is collecting the info and would love to tell Fleck to make this data available via the USB port full time and/or continue to allow the valve to operate in its' programmed mode while the Valve is in the App Mode. I recognize I am not the typical user..... Go ahead and laugh all.... :)

However, I am very pleased with the performance of the 5810XTR2 valve (softener) and I have a 5810STX valve for a carbon tank (in front of the softener). I went with the STX for the carbon tank as it really only rinses the carbon every 8 days or so. My peak rate I have seen is ~9 gPM, but I now have a better understanding, via the XTR2 valve data it collects, of what different appliances/bathrooms use now, daily water usage, regens, etc.

Here is my config:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx_owtKNMuwKb0wyQmMycENaWEE/view
 

Rmk9785e

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If my analysis of water usage from bills for the last 10 months is accurate, my concern for softener service flow rate was overblown.
upload_2017-10-6_14-55-59.png

My broad (and not very precise) assumptions were:
a- Water use is the same every day,
b- Most water use is during 12 hours each day,
c- Sprinkler water use can be ignored.
Of course these are generalizations and could be wrong just like other generalizations but I think I'm not too far off. Probably the highest per minute use is in the morning when everyone is getting ready for work/school. If I had a smarter meter, I could get a whole lot better idea of the highest gallons/minute consumed.

I suspect with the automation of everything, we're not far off from having the controller manufacturers smartening their next models.
 

ditttohead

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You cant calculate the GPM based on a GPH or GPD number since the flow rates vary wildly during the day. The XTR2 controller from Fleck does show you a lot of information, daily usages, peak flows, totalizers etc. all downloadable to a PC tablet or computer.
 

Rmk9785e

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You cant calculate the GPM based on a GPH or GPD number since the flow rates vary wildly during the day. The XTR2 controller from Fleck does show you a lot of information, daily usages, peak flows, totalizers etc. all downloadable to a PC tablet or computer.
As always, you're right on the point. My calculations were admittedly based upon broad assumptions which didn't give me accurate numbers. At least I know the average daily use. The water hardness as tested on this site is 21 so it seems safe to go with the 2 cubic foot system.
 

Rmk9785e

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Just had the 2 cu ft WS-581SM water softener & BW-581SC Carbon filter installed. During the installation, the plumber had to install 1-1/4"to 1" reducers as he found the supply plumbing to be 1-1/4". The systems are not started up yet and are in by-pass mode. We had a noticeable drop in water pressure when taking showers this morning. I'm concerned it will get worse once both filters are operational.
What can be done to fix this problem?
 

Reach4

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During the installation, the plumber had to install 1-1/4"to 1" reducers as he found the supply plumbing to be 1-1/4". The systems are not started up yet and are in by-pass mode.
How about a photo showing the new piping including the adapters?

  1. Just to confirm, on each bypass, both blue knobs are turned clockwise so the handles are lined up with each other, right?
  2. Did you plumb in any boiler drains or pressure gauges?
  3. What is the water pressure after the softener when no water is being drawn, and when 2 showers are running?
 
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