Water Softener Help

[Rmk9785e]

The attached photos show the reducers and the bypass valves which appear pointed in the right direction. (Can’t attach photos until I get home and reduce file size).
No boiler drains or pressure gauges were installed therefore do not have information about pressure readings. Had I suspected it would be an issue, I would’ve installed a gauge.
Does the 5810 valve have larger connection option of 1-1/4”?

 

[Reach4]

The attached photos show the reducers and the bypass valves which appear pointed in the right direction. (Can’t attach photos until I get home and reduce file size).
No boiler drains or pressure gauges were installed therefore do not have information about pressure readings. Had I suspected it would be an issue, I would’ve installed a gauge.
Does the 5810 valve have larger connection option of 1-1/4”?

The photos did not make it. I am hoping that will show something.

Search for 61991-03 in your service manual. If you cannot find that manual in PDF, let us know. The Fleck 5812 is bigger inside, but the 5810 uses the Fleck 62008 Bypass unit. I think that is a 1.25 bypass. But really, I cannot imagine 2 showers to generate enough flow to cause a noticeable pressure drop when using 1 inch pipe. Are these special high flow showers or something?

Do you have a cartridge filter?

You can attach a garden hose thread pressure gauge to a laundry tub spout if it has GHT. You can install at a laundry tap. You can attach to the drain on the WH.

 

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[ditttohead]

The 5810 has sweat, glue joint, and threaded 1-1/4 and 1-1/2" connections available.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/54-55

Code does not allow the pipe size to be reduced but in all reality it should not affect pressure especially with full port 1" plumbing. it has to do with velocity calculations rather than actual flow rate. The pressure drop should be insignificant. Check out the linked page for some velocity and code information on plumbing. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/48-49



A new system will reduce flow rate until the units are regenerated a couple times. The beds need to completely reclassify themselves. Run both units through a couple regenerations and see if that helps.

 

[Rmk9785e]

I have reduced the photo file size and am uploading here. These are regular showers. There is no cartridge filter at this site.
Is there a recommended brand of pressure gauges? What should be the range on the gauge that I should buy?
I should've had the plumber measure the pipes before ordering and stayed code compliant. The reducers are outside the wall and can be removed. I guess I'll need the larger flex pipes as well. Could the 5810 connections be replaced with 1-1/4" connectors?

 

[Rmk9785e]

The 5810 has sweat, glue joint, and threaded 1-1/4 and 1-1/2" connections available.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/54-55

Code does not allow the pipe size to be reduced but in all reality it should not affect pressure especially with full port 1" plumbing....

The High Flow Plastic Bypass on page 54 doesn't state the size of its opening or the options for 1-1/4" opening. Which parts would need to be replaced to connect the systems without using 1-1/4"-1" reducers and making it code compliant?

 

[ditttohead]

The 5810 bypass is huge compared to other bypasses... From right to left 5600 SS, 5600 plastic, Clack, 7000, 5810/5812. As you can see, the 5810 flow porting is massively larger than any other bypass that is commonly used. It easily meets or exceeds the flow requirements of 1-1/4" pipe size. The connectors are universal, they all fit the 5810/12 bypass.

 

[Rmk9785e]

The 5810 bypass is huge compared to other bypasses... From right to left 5600 SS, 5600 plastic, Clack, 7000, 5810/5812. As you can see, the 5810 flow porting is massively larger than any other bypass that is commonly used. It easily meets or exceeds the flow requirements of 1-1/4" pipe size.

Thank you for making yourself available over the weekend. I'm helping in this installation at my daughter's home and don't want to impact their daily water use.
Please excuse my ignorance and lack of understanding. Does the above mean that the only thing I'll need to do is replace are the flexible steel connecting pipes with 1-1/4" pipes (and eliminate the reducers) and they will fit the current 5810 bypass? What is the make & model/part number for the larger steel pipes that I need to get?

I'm trying to eliminate the impact of reducers to troubleshoot the pressure/velocity drop when more than one faucet is opened at the same time. The only changes made by the plumber during this visit were:
a- replace the main water valve with a quarter turn ball valve (he had to shut off the city valve before the meter),
b- remove the loop and install 1-1/4" to 1" reducers to the carbon filter/softener tanks. Both of these are in bypass mode at this time.

 

[Reach4]

So I need to plan for about 63 GPD each at 40 gpg hardness.

Also, I'd love to turn off my irrigation but my dang HOA would throw a fit like you wouldn't believe.

You don't run your irrigation water through your softener or iron filter etc.

 

[ditttohead]

You are correct, the bypass is 1-1/4", the 5810-5812 use the same high flow bypass.

Take a look at part number 51-535, I am sure I can hook you up with someone that will sell these to you, I will send you a

You should get (3) 51-535 PM. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/120-121

and 1 33-61991-03 https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/54-55

 

[Rmk9785e]

You are correct, the bypass is 1-1/4", the 5810-5812 use the same high flow bypass.

Take a look at part number 51-535, I am sure I can hook you up with someone that will sell these to you, I will send you a

You should get (3) 51-535 PM. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/120-121

and 1 33-61991-03 https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/54-55

Please send me the supplier info so I can get these parts ASAP and let the plumber finish project and get paid. I assume I will need one interconnect pipe and push-to-fit two supply pipes.
I wonder if there is a way to remove the installed push-to-fit pipes without destroying them.

 

[ditttohead]

They are easily removed. Check out this link. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/232-233

 

[Reach4]

Please send me the supplier info so I can get these parts ASAP and let the plumber finish project and get paid.

I really have a hard time thinking that what you have now would be causing two 2.5 GPM showers to bring down the pressure a lot. If you are re-plumbing anyway, I would consider adding some means to check pressure. How about tees instead of the elbows, or add a tee.

Are you sure that your pressure drop is on both hot and cold? If the drop is only on hot, for example, the problem cannot be the softener plumbing. This is not to say that you don't want to increase your water path size anyway, but what if you have a clogged heat trap on the WH or some other limiting factor? How is this for a test: turn one shower on full cold. Turn on the other to full hot. Did the first shower flow diminish a lot as you observed during real showers, which are usually mostly hot?

Or here is another test. Screw a pressure gauge to the cold outlet for the washer. Turn on both showers to hot. What happens on the pressure gauge?

 

[Rmk9785e]

I really have a hard time thinking that what you have now would be causing two 2.5 GPM showers to bring down the pressure a lot. If you are re-plumbing anyway, I would consider adding some means to check pressure. How about tees instead of the elbows, or add a tee.

Are you sure that your pressure drop is on both hot and cold? If the drop is only on hot, for example, the problem cannot be the softener plumbing. This is not to say that you don't want to increase your water path size anyway, but what if you have a clogged heat trap on the WH or some other limiting factor? How is this for a test: turn one shower on full cold. Turn on the other to full hot. Did the first shower flow diminish a lot as you observed during real showers, which are usually mostly hot?

Or here is another test. Screw a pressure gauge to the cold outlet for the washer. Turn on both showers to hot. What happens on the pressure gauge?

Thank you for valuable suggestions. I'm going back to the site tomorrow and will test the pressure as advised. I was reading another thread and am wondering if it could be because of a faulty pressure regulator.

 

[Reach4]

Thank you for valuable suggestions. I'm going back to the site tomorrow and will test the pressure as advised. I was reading another thread and am wondering if it could be because of a faulty pressure regulator.

Oooh... good point. Put a pressure gauge on an outside spigot while you run the showers. Those are not fed with softened water. If the outside pressure drops significantly, the softener plumbing is not involved.

 

[ditttohead]

Agreed, pressure drop to showers should not be caused by this installation even though technically it is incorrect. That being said I have seen plenty of people lose pressure to the shower due to the plumbing being designed well beyond design specifications. ie: the shower on the second floor far away from the main to the house running through 150' of 1/2" pex... any drop or loss can be noticed when the calcs are pushed to the limits like this.

 

[Rmk9785e]

Agreed, pressure drop to showers should not be caused by this installation even though technically it is incorrect. That being said I have seen plenty of people lose pressure to the shower due to the plumbing being designed well beyond design specifications. ie: the shower on the second floor far away from the main to the house running through 150' of 1/2" pex... any drop or loss can be noticed when the calcs are pushed to the limits like this.

I've found out that pressure loss is not just to the shower. It is with any faucet when more than one is opened, pressure drops in all others, showers included. This is a 12 year old home that has had no pressure problem before this project. I'm suspecting it is something else because the plumber also replaced the main water supply gate valve with 1/4 turn ball valve. Something must have gone wrong at that end.
I'm feeling awful causing frustration to the people I love.

 

[ditttohead]

Projects can go wrong, hopefully the problem will be figured out fairly quickly by your plumber. A couple of high quality pressure gauges are a simple and effective way to see what is going on in your plumbing. Let us know what you find out. Pressure regulators should be rebuilt/replaced every 5 years. Was this done?

 

[Rmk9785e]

Projects can go wrong, hopefully the problem will be figured out fairly quickly by your plumber. A couple of high quality pressure gauges are a simple and effective way to see what is going on in your plumbing. Let us know what you find out. Pressure regulators should be rebuilt/replaced every 5 years. Was this done?

It turned out to be a simple problem. When our plumber returned Monday morning, he noticed he hadn't fully opened the city water supply valve at the street. That was an easy fix. Pressure and flow returned to normal. Lesson learned for me is to check everything is working fine before the plumber departs.
Systems were left in bypass mode over the weekend. After water pressure was restored, with help from our excellent manufacturer support, I was able to start up both the carbon filter and the water softener with minimal effort.
A few questions now:
1- Our plumber installed the two drains through a single outlet connection as shown in the attached photo, assuming that the two will not regenerate simultaneously. I hope the drain valves are unidirectional (out only) and this will not cause any cross flow. If that is the case, how do I ensure the two systems are programmed to regenerate on different days (nights)?

2- Water hardness was tested at 21 before the softener was installed. Now it is testing at 6. How does one figure out what the system is factory programmed for? Should I wait for a few regeneration cycles before making any programming changes?
What parameters do I need to change to bring it below 3?
3- The Carbon filter 5810 controller display alternates between the time of day and 14. I assume it is the number of days to regeneration. Similarly, the Softener 5810 controller display alternates between the time of day and 1453. Could that be the number of gallons before the next regenerating cycle? Is that normal?
Again, my question above - how to ensure both systems will not regenerate simultaneously?

 

[Reach4]

1- Our plumber installed the two drains through a single outlet connection as shown in the attached photo, assuming that the two will not regenerate simultaneously. I hope the drain valves are unidirectional (out only) and this will not cause any cross flow. If that is the case, how do I ensure the two systems are programmed to regenerate on different days (nights)?

Presuming you have the SXT controller, download the service manual. = http://waterpurification.pentair.co...Download/en/44019-5810-5812sxt-rev-f-my17.pdf is the rev F version. I find the PDF handier than the paper manual, because I can search.

Set the regeneration times (RT) so the cycles don't happen at the same time. The carbon unit cycle will be shorter. If you set RT =2:00 for the carbon unit, and 2:20 for the softener, they will not overlap. Choose your own numbers.

For each controller, I suggest recording the current settings. I would see what color injector is in the softener, although most would not do that. See page 10 "Entering Master Programming Mode" to see how to get into the mode. Step through the values for each softener, and write down the numbers.

Here is an example setup for a softener that is not yours:

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.25 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 20.1 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day 120.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen 18.8 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810.0 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 50.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 22 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
DO = 21 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 3:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 10 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 20 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?

2- Water hardness was tested at 21 before the softener was installed. Now it is testing at 6. How does one figure out what the system is factory programmed for? Should I wait for a few regeneration cycles before making any programming changes?

That is the H number, but with 21 hardness, you should probably set H=23 .

3- The Carbon filter 5810 controller display alternates between the time of day and 14. I assume it is the number of days to regeneration. Similarly, the Softener 5810 controller display alternates between the time of day and 1453. Could that be the number of gallons before the next regenerating cycle? Is that normal?

Yes to all.

 

[Rmk9785e]

Step through the values for each softener, and write down the numbers.

Here are the numbers on this setup. The softened water tests at zero hardness. I suspect it is over softened. How does one fine tune the system for optimal performance?

System info
salt lb/cuft :Don't know how to set this up and how many bags of salt and how often should be added ; A
BLFC : Not sure how to set this up ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.0 ; Same as (nominal grains/??????)
Raw hardness : 21 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day 240.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen Don't know how to figure out. I don't think this meter can track this data. I would like it to regen every 14 days. ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

SOFTENER Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810.0 ; Valve type
RF = dF1b ; Downflow, Single Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C \V = 36.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 23 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = rc ;
RL = 200
RC = 200 ; Reserve Capacity ?
DO = 14 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 10 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 10 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 12 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?

FILTER Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810.0 ; Valve type
RF = Fltr ;
CT = tc ;
DO = 14 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 1:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 8 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
RR = 8 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
RE = OFF ; Relay[/QUOTE]