Water Softener Help

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eh101

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Hello all,

Nice forum you guys have here, been trying to soak up as much information as possible. Now that I think I have a good general idea, I have some questions. Before those, here is a link to my city's water report that was just published 7-1-16: http://midlandtexas.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2592

Also, I did a water hardness test on my water straight from the faucet with the Hach 5B kit. First time was 33 drops, second time was 34. So my hardness is likely above 30, and below 35, accounting for user error etc. I used 34 in my calculations. House is plumbed with 3/4" pex and is 2.5 bath. For what it's worth, the psi of my water is 58-60 psi measured at an outdoor faucet as that is the only place I am equipped to measure at.

So, to deal with this problem I'm considering a Fleck 7000SXT, 5600SXT, Clack WS-1, or Autotrol 255. If I go Fleck, research points to 602abcwater being the place to buy from. I don't know where to buy the other two models from as yet. Suggestions definitely welcome.

My measurements and calculations lead me to believe I will need just shy of 32,700 grains of capacity, for two people. So that's 2 cu ft resin going by standard sizing. This is backed up by the calculator here: http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php

Thing is, we won't be at just 2 people for much longer than another year, hopefully. And if that comes to pass, we will very likely jump to 4. (Wife is a twin, her mom is a twin, she has 2 sets of twin cousins, twin uncles, triplet aunts, and triplet grandmother + greataunts. On my side I have twin aunts, and twin uncles, and a set of twin cousins. Yes, we're screwed.) Using the above calculator for 4 eventual people, That bumps me up to about 65,300 grains of capacity, and 3.5 cu ft resin. Gulp. At this point, with 10% cross link resin, the 7000SXT reaches twin tank price territory.

You might see my dilemma at this point. So I ask, what is the best way to go about this? Do I really need a super huge tank, or do I get a smaller/regular sized one and deal with inefficiencies later on?

I'll also need help dealing with some pretty major chloramine issues. You can see the levels in the city water quality report, and to make matters as bad as possible, I live about a quarter mile from one of the water treatment plans. Our water always tastes and smells badly of chlorine, and any sort of prolonged shower burns your eyes and causes coughing fits. Any suggestions here appreciated as I'm not sure where to start with chloramines.
 

Reach4

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Also, I did a water hardness test on my water straight from the faucet with the Hach 5B kit. First time was 33 drops, second time was 34. So my hardness is likely above 30, and below 35, accounting for user error etc. I used 34 in my calculations.
With that test, you should test 50% test water and 50% distilled. Then if you count 17 drops, double that to 34 hardness.

The directions say that. I don't know if the result will change any.
 

eh101

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With that test, you should test 50% test water and 50% distilled. Then if you count 17 drops, double that to 34 hardness.

The directions say that. I don't know if the result will change any.

Do you know where these directions are? Looking at the little box it came in, it doesn't say to do it that way. It also didn't have any other directions in the box. But I'll try it tomorrow as I don't have any distilled water on hand, though I do have bottled drinking water.

(blurry) Pictures of box and directions in dropbox link: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/s5d733oasc4rorh/AADFT3knUSpMSJl1MUe--PNCa
 

Bannerman

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I don't have any distilled water on hand, though I do have bottled drinking water.
The Hach 5B is most accurate up to 30 gpg which is why Reach4 suggested testing a diluted sample. Bottled water may contain some hardness which would skew the results. Distilled water will not contain hardness.

While regular activated carbon (GAC) will effectively remove chlorine, Chloramine is much tougher to remove so a back washing filter containing Catalytic Carbon media should be considered. You will likely want a filter containing 2 cuft or more of media.

The benefit of a large softener is to provide high flow capacity and to extend the time between regeneration cycles when using an efficient salt setting. Twin tank softeners are typically two smaller softeners which alternate operation to deliver continuous soft water around the clock even while one tank is regenerating. Unless the water is extremely hard (ie: 80 gpg+) most homes do not require a twin tank softener whereas a larger single tank would allow for increased efficiency.
 
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eh101

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The Hach 5B is most accurate up 30 gpg which is why Reach4 suggested testing a diluted sample. Bottled water may contain some hardness which would skew the results. Distilled water will not contain hardness.

I'll get some distilled water and do the test again tomorrow. Very curious to see how much difference it makes.

Thanks for the initial recommendations/information.
 

Reach4

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Do you know where these directions are? Looking at the little box it came in, it doesn't say to do it that way. It also didn't have any other directions in the box.

The directions are on the side of the box, and I was mistaken about the directions saying to dilute the sample with distilled water to bring the sample into the 0...30 range. http://ca.hach.com/asset-get.download.jsa?id=7639982642

http://www.hach.com/total-hardness-test-kit-model-5-b/product?id=7640219508 says "Simple drop-count titration measures hardness as grains per gallon CaCO₃ (1 gpg = 17.1 mg/L). Utilizes drop count titration with a range of 1-30 gpg. "
 
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eh101

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Alright, I did the test with distilled water as recommended and it took 15 drops, twice. So my hardness should be 30 gpg then. That drops me to requiring at least 1.5 cu ft of resin for 2 people and 3 cu ft for 4 people. So, very slight improvement there.

Thoughts on potential systems? And taking into account the need for 2 cu ft Catalytic Carbon to deal with the chloramines, any recommendations where I can buy everything? Please note I'm not stuck on Fleck, I just want something that'll work and that will be relatively easy to repair myself when that time comes. I should be able to repair just about anything I can access, if I can also access replacement parts.

Things of minor importance: Any color tank is fine, it will be indoor in a water closet. My plumbing is 3/4" pex, and it appears previous homeowner had a water softener because the plumbing loop is already fitted with a T and bypass valves, sharkbite style. Water pressure tested yesterday about 58psi, today about 64 psi. That's pretty normal from what I've seen.

Also, in regards to regular vs 10% resin, how much difference would there be? Basically, is the additional cost worth it?

Thanks for putting up with all my questions.
 

ditttohead

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10% resin has little function if you are installing a carbon system. I would recommend sticking with a Fleck or Clack, the hinese Knock-offs are not well respected and are considered by most technicians as disposable units. I sent you a PM.
 

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The softener sizing calculator that you reference, is a recommendation. The suggested minimum size specified, will allow for an efficient salt setting (ie: 6 lbs/cuft) while requiring a 7 day or longer regeneration frequency.

If the chloramines are removed prior to the softener, then use the less expensive regular (ie: 8% cross link) resin. Ten percent resin is typically recommended to better withstand the affects of continuous chlorine exposure.

The two Fleck controllers you mention are relatively easy devices for DIY maintenance and repairs. Parts are easily obtainable. The Fleck 5600 is appropriate for softeners utilizing tanks 12" (2 cuft) or less. A version may also be utilized for filter applications but the maximum appropriate tank size is 10" (1.5 cuft)

While 7000SXT production will be discontinued shortly, it is a reliable, capable and inexpensive control which is available online. The 7000 is appropriate for any size softener or filter you are considering. Parts will remain available for many years.

Clack are also highly recommended but Clack have long ago stopped selling to online dealers, thereby cutting access to the DIY market.
 
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eh101

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The softener sizing calculator that you reference, is a recommendation. The suggested minimum size specified, will allow for an efficient salt setting (ie: 6 lbs/cuft) while requiring a 7 day or longer regeneration frequency.
I understand that, and it is a very useful tool. It agreed with my own calculations the first time around, so I admit I did take the short cut and just use the calculator for my revised figures.
If the chloramine is removed prior to the softener, then use the less expensive regular (ie: 8% cross link) resin. Ten percent resin is typically recommended to better withstand the affects of continuous chlorine exposure.
I definitely want to remove the chloramine, so I will probably remove it prior to the softener. Any bit of savings helps so I can't think of any reason not to filter before the softener. Thank you for clarifying this.
The two Fleck controllers you mention are relatively easy devices for DIY maintenance and repairs. Parts are easily obtainable. The Fleck 5600 (any version) is appropriate for softeners utilizing tanks 12" (2 cuft) or less. It may also be utilized for filter applications but the maximum appropriate tank size is 10" (1.5 cuft)
Those limits have me thinking of going to at least the 7000 then (or equivalent capability Clack/other brand), especially for the chloramine filter tank.
While 7000SXT production will be discontinued shortly, it is a reliable, capable and inexpensive control which is available online. The 7000 is appropriate for any size softener or filter you are considering. Parts will remain available for many years.
Hmm, do you know what model will be replacing the 7000 valve? Or is it simply going to be discontinued and a 'gap' left in their lineup?
Clack are also highly recommended but Clack have long ago stopped selling to online dealers, thereby cutting access to the DIY market.
That's a shame, but all good things must come to an end. I have found a local dealer who sells the Clack, but as far as I can tell they only sell it as a part of the HydroSpring softener from "WaterWorld USA." It seems to be a rebranded Clack valve with with the resin tank and brine tank combined to make a package. I am still searching for other local sellers.
 

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Hmm, do you know what model will be replacing the 7000 valve? Or is it simply going to be discontinued and a 'gap' left in their lineup?
It looks like the replacement Fleck units will follow the no-shipping-to-end-users marketing limitations of Clack. That is sad. Sorry to see it go. They promise to provide replacement parts for at least 5 years after end-of-life for the product, which has not been officially announced yet. I would be happy to find out that my fears on the matter are wrong.

Besides its better GPM capacity over the 5600SXT, the 7000 also has the advantage of using softened water for the brine refill water.
 

eh101

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Hey guys,

Have some new information and some new questions. Called the city water department today to ask about hardness. They tell me avg of 33, max of 40, min of 26 delivered to public water supply. With this new information, I ask, do I need to upsize my softener to handle all the way to the max? Or how do I use this information to my advantage? Thinking aloud: At max of 40 gpg, that makes my per person grains go up to 2400. For future proofing, at 4 people I'll need minimum 4 cu ft resin for once a week (8 day) regen.

Also, Vortech tanks? Worth it? Research is pointing towards a solid 'no.'

Thanks.
 

ditttohead

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Vortech tanks... just use a good USA made tank with gravel underbedding. The larger vortech tanks have had some issues.

40 grains is what you should design for. A twin alternating system would be ideal for your application.

If we use calculations based on updated water usages, assuming you have modern water saving fixtures, laundry and toilets, your actual usage may be much lower than what you think. The average water usage has been dropping considerably in the USA. In my household we average 30-40 Gallons per person per day. We have automated faucets, low flow toilets, etc. But we do not go out of our way to conserve water, we just don't waste it.

Try this calculation and see if you think it is reasonable.

50 GPD per Person
40 Grains
Regenerate every 7th day.
50 GPD x 40 GPG x 4 People x 7 days = 56000 grains
Regenerate softener at 8 Pounds per CF = 24,000 G per CF =

2.5 CF system, assuming you are conservative with your water usage should be very acceptable.
 

Reach4

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The 5810 and 5812 exceed the 7000 in many ways, no gap at all, actually an increase in coverage.
It is not the technical aspect that concern me. It is the concern about restricted sales of systems, controllers and parts. It is wondering if there are things that cannot be done readily from the buttons, and need the special software. It is wondering if there are lock-down provisions in the software. I hope that I am overly concerned.

Included in my perceived spectrum of manufacturer sales restrictions, we have Kinetico, Culligan, Clack, Autotrol, Fleck 5600, Hankscraft. Where will Fleck 5820 5812 fit along that line?
 
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ditttohead

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5820? A new valve that I am not aware of? :)

5810 and 5812 use the same SXT programming as the 7000 with some minor internal variances that few people would notice. As always, the Fleck and Clack platforms are always being improved and updated to provide a better product. Looking at the 5800 series, you can see where they are going with this valve and the future potential of them is simply amazing.

Regarding the online sales restrictions, it is a good business decision that many manufacturers in many industries are following. The race to the bottom is entertaining and can provide for some short term sales increases, but the long term losses as people who don't understand or cant see past anything but the lowest price and will simply switch to fake knock offs if it is a nickel cheaper. this is what has allowed valves that are nothing more than poor quality knock offs of well respected brands to flourish. I deal with it daily, companies from China trying to sell us their newest knock offs of components nd parts. Some items from China are of acceptable quality, but that is the exception and certainly not the rule.
 

eh101

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2.5 CF system, assuming you are conservative with your water usage should be very acceptable.

I'll be able to figure out just how conservative we are with water when I get back in about a week from a business trip. No way the wife would be able to figure it out for me.

The only thing I really need to do is figure out how much water my sprinkler system uses and subtract that out from the total usage my bill gives me. Shouldn't be too hard.

Thanks for the help so far. I'll be back in about a week with a solid figure for my current daily water usage and get this all figured out.
 

ditttohead

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In general, if your fixtures are modern/low water use types, and you don't take extra long daily showers... we can safely say your water usage will be about 50-60 GPD per person. The old numbers which tend to be very accurate at 75 GPD was with the old non water conserving fixtures.

Let us know what you find.

You could turn off the irrigation for 2 weeks... Brown is the new green... lol.
 

eh101

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Hello all, I'm back finally.

I've figured out our water usage is about 66-67 GPD each. Turns out we aren't too conservative with out usage.

However, I estimate about 5 each can be attributed to a dripping tub faucet. It is a very slow drip, but never stops. It is first on the list for replacement once we get the softener in. I would also imagine part of the issue is our not very modern washing machine (top loading, 6-ish years old? Can't believe it still runs. 0 repairs to this day), and I probably won't be replacing that guy for another couple years barring unforeseen failure considering the other things I need to do to the home/land. So I need to plan for about 63 GPD each at 40 gpg hardness.

A question I have, if single tank, is how big can the tank be without developing channeling issues?

As for the Catalytic Carbon back washing filter Bannerman recommends, how do you calculate the size needed? He recommended at least 2 cu ft. I don't question the recommendation, just curious how such a thing would be calculated.

Also, I'd love to turn off my irrigation but my dang HOA would throw a fit like you wouldn't believe. Hate HOAs. If I move again, my next home will not be in a HOA area.
 
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