standard vs constant pressure pump opinions please

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by madfire, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. madfire

    madfire New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    NV
    I am wondering if the constant pressure pumps are worththe extra couple hundred. Heard varying opinions from different companies. Longevity, ease to work on or diagnose proplems, reliability?

    Thanks again
    Mark
  2. upper

    upper DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Fresno, CA
    I have noticed a short life whith these.I would go regular,with or without a cycle stop valve.........Upper
  3. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I am a little biased because I have been replacing variable speed pumps with Cycle Stop Valves for over 17 years now. My best customers are the ones who have already tried the variable speed route, and then switched to a Cycle Stop Valve to get some dependablity. It's not that I
    don't understand them. I studied and installed variable speed systems and electronics for many years, and that is why I will never use another one. That web page for Franklin is cute, but it doesn't tell you anything. I talk to installers everyday that say they are finished with the variable speed thing, because they can't afford the warranties and mad customers over and over.
  4. upper

    upper DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Fresno, CA
    All I got to say is 03 and 04 sysyems are flying out of the ground......Upper
  5. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    This has happened more times than you would think. It is your money. If you want the best, you should have it. But I agree that if the pump professional is not smart enough to already know these things, or at least willing to learn, then you need to find a better one, or do it yourself.
  6. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You do mean 2003 and 2004 systems are failing correct? I am surprised very many are lasting that long. However, the manufacturers know almost exactly how long they will last on average, it is called "planned obsolescence". It is the main ingredient in "variable speed pump systems". If this link will work it may help explain better.

    http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/video/constant-pressure-pumps-vs-csv-dsl.wmv
  7. upper

    upper DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Fresno, CA
    I think it is a Man on the Moon,Learning curve.Still don't know what good it is.Now I am not saying Cycle Stop is the answer,I just know I would not put in a constant pressure pump!!!!!!!! Upper
  8. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The constant pressure is great! Just have to realize that a computerized system is not a dependable way to get it. How many of them have lasted longer than 5 years, 10 years? Very few if any.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  9. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I hate to say that I am old enough to know that pumps should last 20+ years. The younger generation thinks if they last as long as their cell phone, they should be happy. People do not realize how much energy is wasted, and green house gasses created, by replacing a pump system 3 times in 20 years instead of only once. You know how much extra energy it takes to mine, manufacture, transport, install, and recycle (or dispose in a landfill in the case of electronics), three pump systems instead of one? Not to mention how much more it is going to cost the consumer. But, that is kind of the point, isn't it?

    I have a 1/2 HP Grundfos that is over 27 years old and still going strong. I have pulled Reda's, Gold Crown's, and HPC pumps that were way over 30 years old.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  10. upper

    upper DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Fresno, CA
    My first 3horse jaq.went17 years. I am now 13 years into a 3 horse Grundfos-Franklin....Upper
  11. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I wish I could find manual roll up windows, and a standard carburetor system. There are too many electronic complications in automobiles, appliance, and everything else these days. The oldest vehicles I have is a 47 Wileys Jeep and a 63 International tractor. The main reason these are still working is because they were built in an era that made things to last, and they have absolutely no computers.

    Most of my newer vehicles are Toyotas, because they still build in quality that Americans have purposely built out of automobiles. Running a small business, I have, and have had, lots of vehicles. Pump trucks, drilling rigs, pick up trucks, salesman cars, tractors, fork lifts, bulldozers, back hoes, as well as lots of machinery, are all things I have had to maintain. The older stuff is more dependable because it doesn't have computers and was built to last.

    I like my keyless entry, electric windows, seven disc cd changer, satellite radio, alarm systems, remote start, etc. However, when there are problems, it is always an electronic sensor, digital display, or something else with a computer chip, usually not the engine or transmission. Although you are just as broke down and out of business when a computer chip fails as you are if you blew the engine. I like my computer and all the things it can do for me but, I don't want a computer controlling my water system, heating and air conditioning, automobiles, or anything else that is important.

    I have a fancy new Heat Pump AC and heater. It works great and saves some energy but, it has one computer board that has already failed twice in less than 2 years. I have already decided the next time it fails, I am going to replace it with a standard electro-mechanical relay.

    I studied electronics and built a computer from scratch in 1977. So I understand electronics enough to know what they can do, as well as all their potential problems. You can use computerized systems to monitor, display, and entertain, but if they are used to control major appliances, these appliances will be much less dependable, cost more, and not last as long.

    Water is one of the most important functions of a home. You don't want to skimp on quality products, design, and construction of a well or a pump system. However, more expensive doesn't mean more dependable. Actually it is just the opposite. The more computers you put into a waters system, the more expensive and short lived it will be, and the less likely water will come out of your faucet when opened.
  12. madfire

    madfire New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    NV
    Sorry didn't mean to open a can of worms here. Just looking for opinions from unbiased folks because I haven't seen to many comparisons.
  13. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
  14. Waterwelldude

    Waterwelldude Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Texas
    In my opinion, the variable speed motor or constant pressure pump, is not the best way to go.

    Something like the Jacuzzi Aqua Genie, Dole valve, Cycle Stop Valve, would be a better way to go. There are others out there that provide similar results.
    I have no preference one way or the other on the valves.
    I use the Aqua genie, and have for more than ten years, but I have also heard very good things about the other brands.

    There are many of the well systems around here with there
    30/50 switch, 1hp submersible pump, and a 120 gal tank, and none of the above valves at all, and the owners have had no problems and are very happy with it.

    If you are subject to a small space for the tank( crawl space or what have you, one of the constant pressure valves may be just what you need.

    I would stay away from the variable speed motors. I don't think the motors are built to take the fluctuation in voltage, but again this is my opinion.


    Travis
  15. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Travis, I agree with everything you said. I suppose you are talking about the Aqua Genie 80? I can't find that Franklin is selling the Aqua Genie 400 anymore, is this correct? I heard Franklin was going to start putting Aqua Genie 80 valves on all their jet pumps. Have you heard anything about this?

    Anyway, one point I should make, if you are talking about the Aqua Genie 80, is that all three of the valves you mentioned are good, but are used for three different purposes. The Aqua Genie 80 is not really a valve. It doesn't control the flow in any way. It works more like a flow switch. It basically blocks the opening to the pressure switch when there is any flow through the device. This works pretty good on jet pumps that do not build a lot of pressure. Not so good for a submersible that could build 150 PSI in the house.

    A Dole valve is just a coupling with a small orifice in the middle. These work great when restricting the flow from a pump to a set amount. We use Dole valves when the pump will produce more than the well can supply. Put a 10 GPM pump in a well that can only make 8 GPM, then an 8 GPM Dole valve will make sure the pump can never supply more than 8 GPM.

    The Cycle Stop Valve works more like an Aqua Genie 200 or 400, which I do not believe are available any longer. They were produced for many years as a Jacuzzi product. Since Franklin bought that part of Jacuzzi, they have been telling people that a Valve such as the Aqua Genie 400 will burn up their pump. It is amazing because Jacuzzi didn't have that particular problem for all those years they produced that valve. The by-pass hole getting clogged up is another issue but, low flow to the pump and motor was not.

    So compared to a variable speed pump, the Cycle Stop Valve, or (Aqua Genie 400 if still available), are the only valves of these three that will vary the flow from a pump to match the usage, and maintain a "constant pressure".
  16. Waterwelldude

    Waterwelldude Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Texas
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  17. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Thanks Travis, that is what I thought. Your system stays at 55 PSI all the time because that is all that jet pump can build. The 80 in AG80 means 80 PSI maximum from the pump, so it won't work that way with submersibles that will build more than 80 PSI. The AG400 would work with submersibles up to 400 PSI, that is more in line with how a CSV works. Let me know if you find out about what Franklin is doing on their jet pumps.
  18. Waterwelldude

    Waterwelldude Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Texas
    I don't think we are talking about the same pump. The pump I have will build over 75psi.
    I found that out the hard way.
    The pressure switch stuck, and popped the relief valve, Made a heck of a mess under the house..lol


    Travis
  19. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,468
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Then when you are using a small amount of water like 1 GPM, you should have 75 PSI in the house as well. Since the AG80 doesn’t have any control of the pressure, it just keeps the pressure switch hid, and doesn’t let the pump shut off as long as the flow is more than about ½ of a GPM. You should only get down to 55 PSI when you are using 10 -12 GPM and you are further down on the pump curve. You should actually have higher pressure in the house than the off setting of the pressure switch, when using very small flow like 1 or 2 GPM. If you go from 5 GPM to nothing quickly, you won’t see anymore pressure than the off setting of the switch. At really low flow you see max pump pressure in the house, right?

    Is this a well or are you boosting city pressure?
  20. Waterwelldude

    Waterwelldude Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Texas
    The way I have it hooked up is, the pressure from the well will flow through the pump until the pressure at the well drops below a set point.(50psi) The on setting on my pressure switch.
    As long as the line from the well has over 50psi, the pump never comes on.
    Once I stop using water, it builds to 60 and shuts off. It does not matter what I am doing, from watering the grass or taking a shower, It will never build over 60psi.Once it gets to 60psi the switch shuts the pump off.
    I have it fitted with check valves to prevent it from building back pressure on the well line.

    .
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