Replacing Toilet Shut-off Valve

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by starchoice, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. starchoice

    starchoice New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Edmonton
    My toilet has been leaking now for some time and I want to replace the insides which I think I can do no problem. I am a total novice.

    However, when I went to close the shut-off to the toilet, it did not shut off the water but rather started leaking at the valve. It seems to be okay when open but will not shut off the water but rather leaks when closed. I would like to just replace this valve since it's over 10 years old. However, I don't know how the connection works from the supply pipe (plastic) to the valve. There is a packing nut and a nut from the tank to the valve but nothing from the supply plumbing to the valve except a ring. How does this remove? I don't want to start fiddling with this unless I have some idea of how it works.

    Here's a photo (click on image to enlarge):

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,012
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    That's gray PB pipe coming from the wall, the shutoff is an insert fitting.

    I don't work with PB, but they do make shutoffs that work on it.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
  3. starchoice

    starchoice New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Thanks for the quick reply. Maybe you missed the comment about me being a novice.

    What's a sharkbit shutoff?

    What I need to know is how does the valve come out of the pipe and reinsert? Do I need a special tool?
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,012
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Since the valve no longer shuts off, why would you reuse it?
    Just cut the pipe, and slip on a KwickStop.
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,023
    Location:
    New England
    The hassle is, PB pipe isn't used much anymore, so there aren't many things designed to fit it still available. The shutoff you have has a barbed end that fits inside of the pipe, then that ring is crimped on to hold it in place. www.sharkbite.com makes a valve, and the one indicated above that MAY fit, but they aren't specified for that type of pipe. You have enough pipe sticking out so you would just cut off the shutoff you have, then slide on the crimp ring, then push the new valve into the pipe, then slide the crimp ring over the barbed fitting and crimp it. Or, try one of the shutoffs mentioned that have o-rings for the seal, and toothed grippers to hold it onto the pipe. These also come with a reinforcing insert to keep the whole thing aligned and prevent the pipe from collapsing.

    Another alternative is to use a pex compression shutoff. This is the same as one designed to fit onto a copper pipe, but comes with a SS sleeve that fits inside the pipe so that when you tighten the compression nut, the pex pipe doesn't collapse, and it can make a seal. Copper, pex, and cpvc all have the same OD, so the valve fits on it. I think the PB does too, but not positive. If the pex insert will fit, then the compression fitting should work.
  6. Runs with bison

    Runs with bison Member

    Messages:
    892
    Location:
    Midwest
    Just to make sure we are all on the same page here are you saying that it doesn't shut the water off at all? Or that it partially shuts off but leaks through (if so is it a dribble or far more than that?)

    Or are you saying that the water does shut off, but it leaks from the stem past the packing nut when closed?
  7. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,350
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    A Shark Bite will work. Be sure you get one that is sized for PB pipe. You must cut the old valve off and be sure to cut the pipe square. These come in 1/4 turn models which is nice for toilets and basins where the valve is is full on or full off.
  8. Plumber Jim

    Plumber Jim Member

    Messages:
    92
    I have never seen a sharkbite listed to fit PB. you could get another multi turn stop and in most cases the stem will work on that older valve. new packing and new washer. If that easy fix won't work for you just replace the washer on that valve its going to be an O or OO washer i forget and just put say 2 wraps of twisted teflon tape around the stem just behind the packing nut. The packing nut is the nut right behind the handle. be sure to turn the water off to your house.
  9. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,350
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    I'm not professional, so perhaps I have a misunderstanding of what PB pipe is. It was my understanding that PB pipe is what is used in manufactured homes. I replaced a washbasin and valve in a friends manufactured home and I was sold a Shark Bite valve. It works perfectly, but perhaps this pipe was not PB. If is some other pipe, I apologize for the misinformation and will appreciate the correct information.:eek:
  10. starchoice

    starchoice New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Shut-off does not shut off water but starts to leak - more than a dribble.

    When turned on (allowing water flow), it doesn't leak.
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,023
    Location:
    New England
    Is it leaking around the handle, or into the toilet? If around the handle, try tightening the packing nut a little. This is the nut below the handle, that the handle goes through to the body of the valve.

    If the OD of the PB pipe is 5/8", then you have a chance of a valve designed for pex or copper or cvpc will work. If it is not 5/8", then it won't. PB would probably require the internal reinforcement sleeve as used in pex, but the ID may not be the same, so you'd be at risk of not getting a good seal. Sharkbites come with that internal reinforcement sleeve, that you take out if you use it on copper.
  12. starchoice

    starchoice New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Leaking is not the issue. The leaking is at the valve but it only leaks when I put it in the close position which since it doesn't close (shut off), there is no point putting it in this position. The issue is that the valve does not work so I want to replace it.

    Thanks for the various suggestions but nobody seems to have answered my first question which is how to take off the ring which seems to be holding the supply connection in place? To me, the simplest thing seems to be to replace the valve with a new one with the same type of product and configuration without putting in some new contraption.

    Can the ring then be reused or do I need a new one and how is it crimped on? How does it come off?
  13. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,350
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    That question was answered indirectly. You can't disassemble the connection, you cut it off behind the ring and start over. Until I hear differently, this is the same pipe as used in trailer houses and is repairable with Shark Bite fittings. These are quick and simple devices that slip on to the pipe end and are locked in place. They are removable if necessary using a supplied key. Cut the valve off and take it to the plumbing shop so the pipe end can be IDed and the proper Shark Bite matched to it.
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,023
    Location:
    New England
    You've got plenty of pipe sticking out to cut the old one off and attach a new one. For practical purposes, it's kind of dangerous to have that much plastic sticking out there anyway. There was a class action suit against PB manufacturers as it failed catastrophically. That's why there's a dearth of new bits to work with it. PB has been off the market since about 1995. The stuff tends to get brittle with use, especially if you have high chlorine levels. So, you may find that the pipe shatters if you try to install a new valve designed for it (assuming you can find one). Many homeowners repiped their whole houses. You'll have trouble with yours when it comes time to sell it as most people flag it with a big red flag. Expect to take anywhere up to a $10K hit on the house for having PB pipe in it unless you repipe to get rid of it.

    So, as has been said, you'd probably be safer using a push-on type valve rather than one that is currently there since it is likely to produce less stress on the pipe. But, since PB hasn't been installed for over 14-years, and that type of valve is newer, most manufacturers don't want their product associated with any PB failure, so while it might work, it isn't recommended by them. The barbed fitting you have is a tight fit, then the crimp ring tries to bend it the other way...if the pipe is brittle, good luck. The push-on types use an o-ring for the seal, and metal teeth to hold it in place.

    Good luck...sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but PB is a disaster waiting to happen. You may be lucky, if you have well water, and no chlorine in the water, it could last a very long time. Otherwise, you're on borrowed time (IMHO).
  15. starchoice

    starchoice New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Edmonton
    I ask for a bit of plumbing advice and I get fear mongering and real estate advice in its place.

    With all due respect, I think you have misidentified the piping as defective PB. If what you say is true that "PB has been off the market since about 1995" and "PB hasn't been installed for over 14-years", I can further tell you that I moved into my house in 1997 and it was brand new.

    I encourage you to read the following article to educate yourself. You will see that while it pertains to my specific area which incidentally is noted in every post as to my location, geographical differences play a part in this as well:

    http://www.albertapropertyinspection.com/poly b.pdf
  16. Plumber Jim

    Plumber Jim Member

    Messages:
    92
    It has been taken off the market at least in the US. I have done countless repairs to that horrible stuff, It's complete junk. I for one would not use a sharkbite valve just because it isn't listed by the sharkbite to be used on Poly pipe. That said the next question is ok, what do you use to fix your problem. well. I would say you have 2 choices you can fix the existing valve very easy like i posted by changing the washer and put some teflon behind the packing nut when you reinstall the stem. or I bet you have a great chance that a brasscraft stem from a new valve will fit in place of the old stem. If you don't like that idea you can cut the poly pipe just below the valve and install a new barbed coupling fitting that is made to crimp to poly on one side and pex on the other then use a short piece of pex and a new valve like the one you have made to crimp with pex. very easy.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,023
    Location:
    New England
    If there are any visible markings on the pipe sticking out of the wall, let us know...it looks like PB, but it may not be. The markings will tell. Once you know what kind of pipe it is, your options would become clearer.
  18. starchoice

    starchoice New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Many thanks to you, Plumber Jim. I did just that and it works perfectly. I then tackled my original problem which is what caused me to shut off the valve in the first place and that was replacing the fill valve in the toilet due to a constantly running toilet getting progressively worse. All is good now.

    Regarding the SharkBite hooking to a PB pipe, I contacted the manufacturer and they advised that no problem, the SharkBite will work on PB but just not to turn it. The only reason they don't mention the compatibility of SharkBite to PB in their material is simply because PB is no longer used.
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