Questions before I get a Toto Drake...

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AP1

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I'm nearly convinced, from Terry's web site and reviews I've read, to buy a Toto Drake to replace a very old 3+ gallon flush toilet in our home. Before I do, I have an observation and then some questions...

Observation
We have a Drake elongated, comfort height, WaterSense toilet at work. The one thing I don't like about the toilet is how dependent the flush is on your technique -- how long you hold the lever down while flushing. Flush normally (a quick push down on the lever and let go) and you get a minimal flush. Okay for liquids, just fair for solids. Flush more consciously (hold the lever down just a second or two) and you get a nice, powerful flush. Great for liquids and solids. Go for the gusto (hold the lever down until the tank empties, perhaps 3-4 seconds) and you get a clear-anything flush.

With awareness and skill, you can flush with finesse depending on the flushing needs at hand. However, that's a hassle if you want a great toilet that just works -- flush and go. I don't want to have to train my family members and guests how to use the toilet. Again, it should just work.

Questions
1. Has anyone else noticed this behavior about the Toto Drake?
2. Is there a way to make a normal flush actually flush more normally? I've noticed with a normal flush, the flapper is up for just a half-second or so before it falls back down and closes the tank opening.
3. Is there a way to make the toilet action less dependent on how you flush?

For reference, we have a Kohler Wellworth. It's flushing action is nice and consistent; it doesn't depend on how long you hold the handle down. That said, it's been a pretty weak toilet for solids over the years.

Thanks in advance for your insights.
 

Jadnashua

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To get the designed water use on a Toto, you have to press the lever down all the way. If you hold it, you can empty the tank and thus will use almost twice as much water. If you 'flick' it, you'll get an unreliable result, and some like that, but it only dilutes the bowl, it won't flush it out entirely (close, but no cigar). So, in reality, there is only one 'correct' way to flush one of these. If there's too much slack in the chain, your results can be much less reliable, and holding it a second or so will allow enough water to pass so that when you release it, you end up with close to the design volume.

You can't have the chain taunt, there must be at least a little slack, but there cannot be too much.

The failure mode of the flapper valve is when they start to get old, they start to get soft, and the edges start to bow while the center sinks from the water pressure on top of it. This can eventually take up all of the slack, and then it won't seal. So, a quick visual check is to see how level the outer flange is...when it starts to bow much, have a spare on hand. Depending on your water quality, that could be only a few years, or many (those with their own well and untreated water could see many, many years of life out of them; those with highly treated municipal water, only a few).
 

Terry

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I don't know how your toilet is adjusted, but a standard Drake should flush very well by pushing and releasing.
If the water in the bowl is low to start with, that will have an effect. I have sold hundreds of the Drake model over the years, and flushing, as reported by customers has always been great for solids.
You might also look at the Entrada by TOTO with a 1000 gram rating. I've been selling a lot of those in Seattle too.

cst244ef_cabin.jpg
 
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Jadnashua

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Terry makes a good point I should have included...their toilets are adjusted in the factory, but especially if the fill valve has been replaced, the water level in the tank could be too low, or if they did not use an OEM valve, the bowl might not be properly refilled. The OEM fill valves are calibrated to get the bowl and the tank full at the same time, but it can only really monitor the tank. Since not all fill valves have the same tank/bowl fill ratio, the tank could be full before the bowl is and that WILL affect how the toilet functions. You can't really overfill the bowl, as any excess just goes down the drain (unless it is plugged!)...but, it is a total waste, so should be avoided.

The tank water level must be at the indicated fill line for the toilet to function properly.
 

AP1

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Thanks for your quick replies. Related question...

In your experience, when the toilet is flushing the designed amount and flushing is complete, how high is the water in the bowl compared to the location of the rim/indent that's about halfway down the bowl? With a normal flush (just press down and let go), the water in the Drakes at work is about 1-2" below that rim. Hold the handle down 1-2 seconds and the water level is about even with the rim.
 

Reach4

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Your refill on a regular flush is not sufficient if the water stays at that higher "rim" level that you describe. You could replace your fill valve with one that makes the refill amount adjustable. Ideally the refill will be just a little below that level or hits that max level at the last second of the fill.
 

Jadnashua

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The easiest way to determine the proper fill level of the bowl is to get a bucket and slowly pour water in (if you pour it too fast, it will flush). Once it stops going up, let it sit for maybe a minute or so, and that is the design level for that bowl. They are always (or should be) filled to the point where they'd overflow down the drain with more (some older designs regularly overfilled the bowl - the newer designs are carefully calibrated so the tank and bowl get filled at the same time to limit that waste). Some replacement fill valves are adjustable if you don't want to or can't get an exact replacement, so that you can get the perfect refill and minimize waste. This can be significant, and is still a problem even if you have your own well...more water to pump up does cost money in electricity.
 

WJcandee

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Sounds like someone either installed the wrong fill valve, like a standard Fluidmaster 400A, in your toilet at work, or installed the right one and did not adjust it properly. It sounds like your toilet at work is not starting with the full amount of water for the flush. A Drake uses a 40% refill ratio. A standard run of the mill fill valve that a handy man who didn't know any better would install has a 20% refill ratio, leading to the toilet not starting with enough water in the bowl. That makes a meaningful difference in the flush. With a properly adjusted chain, as Terry points out, all you have to do is push the lever all the way to the end of its travel and let go. the most straightforward replacement fill valve for your toilet at work is the Korky 528MP max performance fill valve, which has a silver cap, not a white or red one.
 

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Additional information...

The Toto Drake toilets at work have the bright green E-Max valve assembly and a gray flapper. Original parts as far as I know. The chain does look a little slack. Also, it has a white sleeve (about 2" long) on the chain near the flapper.

By the way, I didn't install or maintain the toilets at work. I just happened to have the good fortune of being able to use a Drake every day. Now I just need to decide it that will be a good choice for our home.

Questions
1. With a simple push-and-let-go flush, would you expect the flapper to be open for more than just a half-second or so? When I watch the flapper during a flush, it closes exactly at the time I let go of the flush lever. It doesn't remain floating or open for any time after I let go of the lever.

2. From Reach4's reply, I'm not clear whether the normal water level in the bowl should be even with the rim/indent or not.

3. I may have asked this in a previous post, have you ever heard reports from women to experience splash-back from the front of the bowl when they're in the process of peeing? My wife used one of the Drakes at work and that was her first comment after using it. For reference, they have the "cutout" seats (open in front) installed on the Drakes.

4. Do you still confidently recommend Toto Drake toilets for use at home?

5. Is there any reason I should avoid the WaterSense 1.2 gallon version in favor of the standard 1.6 gallon model?
 

AP1

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I don't know how your toilet is adjusted, but a standard Drake should flush very well by pushing and releasing.
If the water in the bowl is low to start with, that will have an effect. I have sold hundreds of the Drake model over the years, and flushing, as reported by customers has always been great for solids.
You might also look at the Entrada by TOTO with a 1000 gram rating. I've been selling a lot of those in Seattle too.
Thanks Terry. Why do you mention the Entrada? Why is the 1000 gram rating significant?
 
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AP1

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Your refill on a regular flush is not sufficient if the water stays at that higher "rim" level that you describe. You could replace your fill valve with one that makes the refill amount adjustable. Ideally the refill will be just a little below that level or hits that max level at the last second of the fill.
Hi Reach4. I don't quite understand "...is not sufficient if the water stays at that higher rim level...". Can you clarify that? What water level should I expect to see if I looked in the bowl of a Drake after a normal flush?
 

WJcandee

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Answers to your questions:

(1) Here's how a properly-adjusted Drake should look when flushed. This is the 1.6gpf, but the 1.28 should be essentially the same. Older model than yours so different color on the flapper.


(2) The "normal level" in the bowl isn't necessarily the indent. Here's a cutaway showing what's inside the toilet. The bowl should fill to the point that water is just about to flow over the weir. It can fill no more. Any overfilling just flows over the weir and down the drain. To see what its "normal" or "settled" level is, you overfill the bowl a bit and see where it settles to. You can mark that with a pencil. That's where it should fill to. (One way newer toilets save water is to fill precisely to that point, by matching the percentage of water that is used for refill to the time that the tank takes to refill, so that when the tank shuts off, there's exactly the amount of water in the bowl that there should be, and no more. Older toilets generally overfilled the bowl a bit (or more than a bit) and just let the extra flow over the weir and down the drain.)

toilet%20diagram.jpg


(3) Most people don't experience splashback on an elongated toilet, including the Drake, but everybody kinda pees differently...

(4) The Drake is still a confidently-recommended toilet. The Eco-version can also now be had with a new, more traditional looking tank, but that's optional. That model is CST744EN instead of CST744E (the "N" is for "new tank").

(5) Terry may be recommending the Entrada, which is a new-ish model that comes from Toto's parent's factories in South America, because even though it is a well-designed toilet with an excellent flush and good quality, it's a little less expensive than the Drake. It's also just a little-different look, and the reality is that when you have a line that flushes as well as Toto, you can confidently pick the one that you think looks best to you and know that it will work well. I think that the experience of folks with the Entrada is such that it's going to end up being a big-seller.

(6) The thousand-gram rating is as good as it gets. Anything over 500 is excellent, so the differences above that are almost meaningless in everyday use. But I'm guessing that he's mentioning the MAP Rating because it shows that the thing can evacuate a lot of waste.

(7) 1.28 is the wave of the future. The Drake bowls are all designed now to work on 1.28, even if the tank is dispensing 1.6. Toto's 1.28 toilets really do just as well as the 1.6 by any practical measure. One of our posters actually did some tests at home, where he had both, and he liked both equally well.

Come back with any questions.

Now...with regard to purchasing. Ignore the list price. It's grossly-inflated. Look at Terry's prices above for a fair price that you should be able to achieve. Get the exact model number and color that you want, and find 5 plumbing supply places near you in the Yellow Pages under Plumbing Supply. They all should be able to get Toto from their distributor, so don't just look for ads that say "Toto" in them. Call all five and tell them that you are interested in purchasing a Toto (Drake or Entrada), model number XXX in color Y and that you are ready to come in and buy today if they have it at a good price. Be nice. Don't quote the Internet price. Just ask them what their price would be if you came in today to place the order. One will be a real jerk. One will be nice but expensive. One will quote you a truly-exorbitant price, and at least one will be nice and give you a good price. This is true, for some reason, all over the country.

Let us know how this all works out for you!!
 
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Reach4

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Hi Reach4. I don't quite understand "...is not sufficient if the water stays at that higher rim level...". Can you clarify that? What water level should I expect to see if I looked in the bowl of a Drake after a normal flush?

Rim was your term. You said "Hold the handle down 1-2 seconds and the water level is about even with the rim." So whatever you used to describe the highest water mark that would stay for a minute is fine with me. If the water was temporarily higher than the weir, it would not stay at that higher level.

An ideal flush will reach that maximum level just as the water shuts off. If the water shuts off with the water an inch lower than that, your fill valve is not doing the required job; adjust if possible, or replace.
 

Gary Swart

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Apparently the OP lives in the Seattle area. If so, there is no need to call around looking for a good price for a Toto. Terry is in your backyard and can provide you with whatever model Toto your heart desires at the best price you will find anywhere.
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, I put two Drakes into my mother's house, and she's never had an issue with them. I chose a Vespin and a Carlyle for my home because of their style and I do think the skirt leaves fewer places for dust and crud to accumulate...personal choice. They all work fine.

The flapper does not stay up for more than a moment. The only time I've had an issue was when I didn't actually push the lever down all the way.
 

Wallijonn

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Is there any reason I should avoid the WaterSense 1.28 gallon version in favor of the standard 1.6 gallon model?

Not really. I have both a 1.28gpf Drake normal height elongated and a 1.6gpf Drake Comfort Height elongated. The difference, I find, is in the finesse of the handle, that it is much easier to work the handle on the 1.6gpf, with the 1.28gpf a little too touchy - it just is not as nice, or smooth to work, as the 1.6gpf Drake. ymmv.

I get splash back (straight up) with the 1.28gpf: while sitting down I once got a bull's eye hit. Very disconcerting. I also find that when standing up and urinating the lower bowl tends to water spot the rim more. ymmv. Some have complained of having to wash down the inside of the rim more frequently after #3 (liquid solids). I do it as it is needed, when it starts to spot, and I wax the inside once a month.

Do other toilets,, specifically the AS Cadet 3 (now the "Pro" model), have the same "problems"? idk. The Kohlers? - definitely. To get around those little inconveniences one will have to spend a lot more for the Cycle action Totos. Now AS has started to copy the Toto cylcone - they have come out with the "VorMax" model.

A lot of women don't like elongated toilets because some may get splash back in the front area. If you are getting two toilets you may want to get a round toilet for the wife. If she finds the Comfort Height toilets too high then a regular height toilet is probably better. But, I find, the Totos are usually a little too short, necessitating a thicker toilet seat, about 1", so that the resultant height is about 15.5". ymmv. I wouldn't want the AS Cadet 3/Pro Comfort Height model as it is 16.5" high before you add a toilet seat, so the regular height model is probably a better bet since it is 15" high before you add a 1/2", 3/4" or 1" toilet seat (without taking into account the toilet seat cover). Other than Toto that would probably be the only good model to look at but don't buy it from HD or Lowe's since they only get seconds and thirds. Pay the extra bucks and get it from a reputable distributor/plumbing house.

Budget wise, that 1.28gpf Drake Elongated Comfort Height is probably the best bang for the buck, imo. AS toilets look ugly, to me. I prefer the clean and stylish looks of the Toto to any Kohler.

As far as teaching the rest of the family members how to flush the toilet - one quick full lever depression is all you need.
 

Wallijonn

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I'm nearly convinced... to buy a Toto Drake to replace a very old 3+ gallon flush toilet in our home. ...

We have a Drake elongated, comfort height, WaterSense toilet at work. ... Okay for liquids, just fair for solids.

What are your pipes like? Is it a very old house? If it's very old then you may want to go with the 1.6gpf Drake.

As far as the Drake being "just fair for solids," I have never, ever, had a problem flushing solids. Again, it may depend on your pipes, what condition they are in, whether they are iron pipes or PVC. I have a 1979 house, so my piping is 4" PVC. All I need is one full stroke of the lever and it's all gone. Even heavy loads are no problem. So I question the piping at your place of work.

I had two 3.5gpf toilets that were absymal - I had to do two, sometimes three, flushes to completely get rid of all waste, the first flush getting rid of most of it and the second flush getting rid of the little "floaties" that lingered along with bits of toilet paper.

I haven't missed those Briggs toilets for one single second. Not one. Oh, I may doubt getting the regular height Drake 1.28gpf, but I seldom think of the old toilets.
 
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Jadnashua

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Don't confuse a fast flush with a weak one! Most modern low-flow toilets can't by nature, flush for very long as there just isn't all that much water to work with! Toilets with a good design get it all done VERY quickly. And, to help it along (at least with the gravity flush types), they use some of the height of the water in the tank to aid in pushing that water out to create the good flush (which is why the water level in the tank is so important). One way to get a lot of water out fast is to use a big flush valve, and is the reason why many of them use a 3" flush valve, when the older, higher flow toilets used typically, a 2" diameter one - the 3" one can dump water 2.25x faster than a 2" one. A side benefit to this is that because it uses less water, the toilet refills quicker. An issue with them is that moving all that water fast, often ends up with a bigger 'gulp' a the end when the suction empties the bowl - but it doesn't last long. Sound is a very personal thing, and a gravity flush toilet is MUCH less obtrusive (at least to me) than any pressure assisted toilet (which also can work well - depends on the design). SOme of the older toilets broke suction multiple times before their 5-8 gallons left the bowl because they just kept dumping more and more water down. Good for cleaning the sides, but not so good for the environment!
 

Barb E

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Don't confuse a fast flush with a weak one! Most modern low-flow toilets can't by nature, flush for very long as there just isn't all that much water to work with! Toilets with a good design get it all done VERY quickly. And, to help it along (at least with the gravity flush types), they use some of the height of the water in the tank to aid in pushing that water out to create the good flush (which is why the water level in the tank is so important). One way to get a lot of water out fast is to use a big flush valve, and is the reason why many of them use a 3" flush valve, when the older, higher flow toilets used typically, a 2" diameter one - the 3" one can dump water 2.25x faster than a 2" one. A side benefit to this is that because it uses less water, the toilet refills quicker. An issue with them is that moving all that water fast, often ends up with a bigger 'gulp' a the end when the suction empties the bowl - but it doesn't last long. Sound is a very personal thing, and a gravity flush toilet is MUCH less obtrusive (at least to me) than any pressure assisted toilet (which also can work well - depends on the design). SOme of the older toilets broke suction multiple times before their 5-8 gallons left the bowl because they just kept dumping more and more water down. Good for cleaning the sides, but not so good for the environment!
 
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