Legal/landlord issues... Is it me or my low flow toilet??!!

[WhittneyG]

we have been renting a home for 9 months. The home is about 20 years old, as is the toilet.
Shortly after we moved in, we noticed, the toilet takes over 1 minute to flush and the water comes very high. We moved in August of 2015.
Feb 2016... The upstairs toilet began to overflow, whenever we would flush it. We tried plunging.... Everything. The landlord had the plumber come out. He stated he didn't see anything clogging up the toilet, so he noticed, the metal tubing that goes from the toilet to the wall, looked loose, so he replaced it an put a new one in.
The landlord said we were at fault on that occasion, because we must've hit the toilet really really hard to cause that metal tube to be so lose (although there was no water leaking anywhere, but the toilet overflowing. Also the toilet was only over flowing clear water.... No solids or anything coming back up.
The plumber told my husband we had an older low toilet, and that its not of great quality, and may just need to be replaced.
7 days later, the same toilet overflowed again... At this point water was not coming through the kitchen ceiling which was directly below the master bathroom.
The landlord was upset and said we were putting things in thebt I let. The plumber came again and snakes the toilet several times, found nothing. He then said it could be the flapper, so he replaced that.
5-6 days later the toilet over flowed again.
The landlord then called in a specialist with a 10 foot snake to prove we have put something in the toilet. He said he found nothing. He gave several different options of what could be wrong, including positioning and angling of the toilet, the toilet being an older toilet, of there possibly being a blockage way down in the pipes. He susggested the cheaper route being getting a new toilet.
Landlord had a new toilet put in and stated that we were responsible for all of the costs, because the problem must have been that we hit the toilet in the very beginning and lied about it which caused all of the problems. She refused to allow the plumber to speak to us. We asked her about the toilet being older low flow toilet, Gerber brand 28-790 ... I believe the date on the toilet was 1998, but she said that has nothing to do with it.
When we asked for invoices, she said she did not have to provide them and that we were not allowed to contact the plumber.

She is now suing us for $5000.

I don't know much about toilets, and landlord has made it very clear that she is friends with the plumber and own several homes, so he will do whatever she asks of him.

Does anyone have any advice on what could have went wrong with the toilet.

 

[WhittneyG]

Not asking for legal advice. Just want to know from other skilled plumbers or professionals their take on what could've happen to the toilet to cause it to overflow.
It's fine also if you think we are at fault. I just want to hear other opinions.
P.s. We have never hit the toilet, nor have any reason to. There was scratches, cracks, leaks anywhere on the toilet

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

http://www.rcfp.org/reporters-recording-guide/state-state-guide identifies states where you are allowed or not allowed to record future conversations with the landlord without notification or consent. It would have been good to have that friend-of-the-plumber statement recorded. Let's hope she is not friends with the judge.

Your story sounds reasonable, and that the landlord would be responsible. The only thing is that a clog would not overflow most low-flow toilets with a single flush, even if completely clogged, unless the flapper was stuck and you did not notice. I am not a plumber.

Maybe you should record one of the small claims court TV shows and see what documentation is helpful in small claims court. http://realestate.findlaw.com/landlord-tenant-law/landlord-tenant-disputes-faqs.html

 

[Smooky]

My guess is there was something stuck in the toilet trap. It could have been something like an ink pen or kids toy that would catch solids but a snake and liquids would pass by and not be detected.

 

[WhittneyG]

The landlord is stating that we broke the toilet from hitting it very hard. There was no scratches, marks, leaks... Nothing that would indicate this... The toilet overflowed when flushed. The first plumber stated that the problem may be been the lose metal tubing that connects the tub to the wall, but he repaired that the very first visit. She was stating we broke the tubing. So after that was fixed, if the toilet continued to overflow. The plumber then stated it could be the flapper, so he repaired that the 2nd visit and snaked the toilet. The toilet continued to overflow. The 3rd visit, the plumber stated he didn't know what was wrong with the toilet, but it would cheaper for Landlord to just replace it.
The landlord then decided that in order for her not to have to pay all of these bills, she needs to say all of this was our fault for breaking the toilet. The plumbers were all very nice to us, until she ordered them not to speak to us, and for us not to contact them.
Are plumbers not allowed to explained to a tenant what is wrong with the toilet and who was at fault?

 

[WhittneyG]

If we would contact the plumber, I believe he would speak honestly with my husband about the toilet, but our landlord strictly ordered we cannot contact him and he cannot communicate with us.

 

[Reach4]

Do you plan to renew your lease?

 

[WhittneyG]

No, not after this incident.

Our heater was messing up, 4 months after we moved in... Our Landlord swore we broke it, and sent us through the ringer for 3 weeks in Dec with no heat, trying all of the these different things, until she finally broke down and called a professional, who said the heater was 20 years old and was going out and had nothing to do with us.
Several of our outlets never worked. We complained about them several times, initially when we first moved in, and several times after. We moved in on August. She did not send an electrician out until February, and instructed them not to speak to us... They were here for 10 minutes, left and she told us they told us we were responsible and we have to pay... When we asked for the bill, she said we couldn't have it...
Now it's the issue with toilet. We live in a upscale housing addition, and love the home, but this landlord makes our experience very negative.

 

[Jadnashua]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you'll find the only agency that could prohibit you from talking to the plumber is the court, not the person suing you. Now, he is under no obligation to talk to you. If it did go to court, you could subpoena him, then, he'd be required to talk or face contempt.

If they claim that you broke the toilet, I hope you had pictures or access to it. It's very hard to break a toilet in normal use. The supply line going to it won't cause the toilet to overflow. The internal valves, if there's a blockage in the toilet, could cause it to overflow, but normally, it would just go down the drain if things were constantly running. IF the supply line was loose and leaking, it would do that onto the floor, and not cause the toilet to overflow. There's a requirement that the landlord must provide working devices in the rental.

 

[Dana]

If we would contact the plumber, I believe he would speak honestly with my husband about the toilet, but our landlord strictly ordered we cannot contact him and he cannot communicate with us.

A landlord has no power to tell you who you may or may not communicate with (even if your landlord is the warden at a prison where you are incarcerated.) The plumbers may or may not choose to communicate with YOU, but that's their prerogative. It's worth a shot.

If you contact the plumber, what is she going to do, sue you... again?

And the damages would be...?

Communicating with the repair person would not be grounds for eviction, if she's going to try to pay that card.

If a completely brand new toilet costs $5000 to install, I'm clearly in the wrong business! In an insane world should her nut-job theory become a legal finding of fact (which has nothing to do with actual facts), the amount is over the top- the decimal point is even in the wrong place (unless she's paying the plumber 5-10x more than typical just to put up with her. )

There is no mechanism by which a toilet can be clogged by hitting it. If that's her story and she takes it to court, you may have to hire and "expert witness", a licensed plumber to testify to that, or get a sworn statement from such a witness.

A stern letter from a lawyer hinting that you'll counter-sue if she doesn't fix it on her own dime, and fix it soon would be in order. If she throws a fit you can withhold rent, paying it into an escrow account until the toilet is fixed and every thing in the house is brought up to code. If she has actually filed the paper you'll probably need to get legal advice anyway, but tenants don't have to put up with abuse in most jurisdictions, though the limits of your rights varies by state.

 

[WhittneyG]

The day the 3rd plumber came and told her we had NOT put anything in the toilet, and did not know exactly what was wrong and suggested at this point it would be cheaper to just replace it, she agreed, had them come the next day, replace the toilet. Then as soon as the plumbers left, she emailed us that we were at fault and had to pay for all three plumbers, and the new toilet, and the cost of the repairs for the kitchen ceiling, due to the leaking. I asked her how in the world did she come up to that conclusion, because no plumber had ever said that when we were present, which was every time.
She said we could pay and hire our own plumber and then have them call her and she would tell them what we did wrong.
She then said we had 10 days to pay. On the 11th day we received the court papers in the mail that we were being sued for $5000.

 

[WJcandee]

What state are you in?

 

[WhittneyG]

Indiana

 

[Koa]

I was a landlord for over twenty years and spent some time in court with tenants.

First, don't freak/stress out about this. Get a copy of your local landlord/tenant code and read through it. You have many rights. Also look over your lease and compare it to the code.

Your landlord can accuse you of anything but proving it legally before a judge usually sympathetic to tenants is not all that easy. Document everything, take pictures and videos, write down notes with a timeline, be ACCURATE and TRUTHFUL. ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH since that's much easier to keep track of and the story/facts will always be consistent.

Sounds like your landlord is trying to take advantage of you regardless of the actual cause of the problem with the toilet.

Good luck.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Your landlord can accuse you of anything but proving it legally before a judge usually sympathetic to tenants is not all that easy.

The landlord (or the other party) can indeed accuse anything they want, it's really up to the tenant to defend themselves on firm ground.

If the tenant is too weak and timid and can't defend themselves, they can lose and will pay for it.

Tenants need to be reminded that landlords are in it for profit, and suing for $5000 is good profit.

Welcome to law, where the bigger bully will win.

Now might be a good time to move out. Or pay up.

 

[WhittneyG]

I am not weak by any means, or I would have paid for everything by now. I'm planning on attending court and giving my side of the story. I wrote this post to inquire from people with experience or knowledge in the plumbing field, regarding the damages that we are being accused of.
We know we were not negligent or at fault, but it's not what you know, it's what you can prove, so I came her for guidance and feedback, since we are not able to speak with the plumbers who actually made the repairs.

 

[Widgit Maker]

Shortly after we moved in, we noticed, the toilet takes over 1 minute to flush and the water comes very high.

That to me is an indication that there was a blockage or a partial blockage in the drain line. Nothing to do with the toilet itself.

The landlord had the plumber come out. He stated he didn't see anything clogging up the toilet, so he noticed, the metal tubing that goes from the toilet to the wall, looked loose, so he replaced it an put a new one in.

Well, you can never see what is blocking a toilet and you can't tell if it is blocked by looking at it. Furthermore you can't tell if the supply tube (the metal tubing that goes from the toilet to the wall) is loose by looking at it. If it were loose it would have been leaking. This guy was not a plumber, he was just a shill she sent around.

The plumber told my husband we had an older low toilet, and that its not of great quality, and may just need to be replaced.

He was just setting you up for her.

The plumber came again and snakes the toilet several times, found nothing. He then said it could be the flapper, so he replaced that.
5-6 days later the toilet over flowed again.

Snaking a toilet doesn't do any thing if the blockage is in the drain line. A flapper doesn't cause a toilet to over flow.
I take it that this was the same "plumber".

The landlord then called in a specialist with a 10 foot snake

A "specialist" doesn't come with a 10 foot snake, he comes with a 100 foot snake. If he is really a drain specialist that snake will be almost as big around as your arm. Another shill.

The landlady has to prove her claims. You do not have to disprove them.

This woman has been to court before. She will have people testifying on her behalf. The reason the amount is $5000 is that if Indiana is like Virginia, that's the limit in Small Claims court. Be prepared to question the qualifications of her witnesses ie. are they licensed plumbers. Don't think what they say now will be what they will say in court, they are friends of hers.

If Indiana is like Virginia you cannot have a lawyer represent you in Small Claims court. Not to be unkind but it doesn't sound like you are the kind of person that can adequately defend yourself in court.
Suggest that you find an attorney, then go to court and request or move that the the case be moved up to General District court (your right). Then when you get in General District court have your attorney ask for a postponement. Actually I would ask for a postponement at the first hearing in Small Claims, then ask that the case be moved to General District at the second hearing. That should take you to the end or beyond the end of your lease.

Watch the case disappear. Have your lawyer check the landlady's history in Small Claims. She is using the system to intimidate you and prior tenants and rob you blind.

By the way, I have been a landlord for over 30 years. But I am an honest one.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

I'm planning on attending court and giving my side of the story.

The problem here is that there will be 4 people (3 plumbers, 1 landlord) to give "their story", people who will say anything and make up new "truths" against you. You are not a licensed plumber so you have no credibility to speak anything about toilets and plumbing.

The toilet was working before, and you are the only ones living there, so YOU caused the block. It wasn't smurfs or gremlins, YOU were the ones with bad flushing habits. Too many wads of tp, baby wet wipes, dental floss, condoms, tampons, lego bricks, you'd be surprised the kind of stuff I discover when I pull a toilet off the flange.

Also, toilets don't overflow by themselves. There's only about a gallon or so of water in a low-flow tank. When people see a toilet is stuck, they always try flushing again and again repeatedly, and NOW the toilet overflows. I belive you did this.

I hope you are not going to print out this thread and take it with you to court. We give help to the actual DIY that is doing a job, not legal council, and I strongly recommend you to not confer in legal advice from strangers on the internet, and get your own lawyer to help you here.

We live in a upscale housing addition, and love the home, but this landlord makes our experience very negative.

Seriously? Still not running away and move out at this point?

If you still choose to stay, get some money ready. This landlord will want it and do everything to get it. Remember, they are in the rental business for profit, your job is to make them money, not cost them money.

 

[Koa]

Nothing was found when they pulled the toilet.

What's the point of posting a pic of an eviction notice? Because a landlord rents a house, they still need to abide by the lease and rental codes. The tenant probably has more rights than the landlord. Who cares what the landlord wants?

This will be small claims so no attorneys. It can be move to another court but she will need to pay an attorney. The landlord is asking $5000 (probably the max in her state) with no accounting to the tenant and has forbidden the tenant from talking to the plumber. Why $5000? Was there more than $5000 actually spent but this is the limit? Judge is going to love no accounting and forbidding part regardless of what caused the problem with the toilet. Why would three supposedly licensed plumbers lie for this landlord? Does she have so many rentals that she employs these guys full time? Come on. Nothing was found in the toilet to cause the problem. This doesn't happen by hitting/knocking it. Also, no heat for three weeks in December is probably a violation of the lease. The landlord's actions are bordering on harassment if what the poster says is true. Landlords ARE in the rental business and are expected to do everything in accordance with the law and since they should know better is one of the reasons judges tend to give extra weight to tenants testimony.

I assume you won't be renewing your lease. When it's time to get your security deposit back, by law, your landlord has a certain number of days to give you back the security deposit AND a WRITTEN accounting of any funds being withheld. If she does not comply, most states have mandatory double or triple damages against the landlord.

Like I said, document as much as possible. Have copies of texts, emails and notes of phone conversations to back up your version of events. Ask the landlord in writing for accounting and names and phone numbers of anyone who worked on the plumbing. Also ask for the name of the guy who worked on the heater (just for fun). Do not imply in writing you might have been at fault (sounds highly unlikely you were if what you said here is true) in any way. READ the land/tenant code, I suspect you might find other things in there your landlord did that was not allowed.

Post back with the outcome. Again, good luck.

 

[WhittneyG]

She hired 3 separate plumbers, because when we would ask the plumber in front of her if we put anything in the toilet or if appeared that we hit it and caused it to overflow, the first said no, it did not appear the anything was in the toilet when he snaked it. She did not like that answer, so when it overflowed again, she contacted a different plumber... And when it happened again, a "drain specialist", because she was certain we were at fault. She the drain specialist found nothing, is when she came to the conclusion, that we must've broke the toilet from hitting it very hard and then hired the first plumber to put in a new toilet. When he returned was when he was not allowed to speak to us or answer any of our questions. And then she refused to supply ANY of the invoices to me... She just sent me and email wth totals.