Layout lines on Ditra

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by jadnashua, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    If you cannot see the bevel on the edge of the tower (it allows the heating wire to snap in place and holds it, but most of the towers do not have a wire passing by or wrapped around it, you're blind. The cavity in the tower, along with the shape of the outside of the tower holds the thinset in place, locking it to the mat, and since the tile is bonded to the thinset, the distance between the towers is fixed, the tiled assembly can expand and contract independently of the subflooring. Because the towers have air space (the basic definition of how an uncoupling membrane actually uncoupled things), it works. Because the stresses on the tile are either compressive (and those are supported by the columns of thinset that go to the bottom of the mat) or shear, and in shear, it is acting against the spring of the mat with the air chambers for cushions, there is VERY little stress in the shear plane. That you don't understand that and keep bringing it up really shows how badly you hold a grudge against Schluter and them asking you to stop misrepresenting their products. For those of you that can see the obvious, you make up your own mind. The stuff works. If you don't like it, don't use it. Rather than placing your wires or mat, then trying to level it (especially if you don't cover the whole floor - like underneath the vanity or close to the toilet), then install your tile, trying to avoid nicking a wire or it all floating to the top if you use SLC cause your hot melt or whatever didn't lock it in place well enough, you'd appreciate that the wire is held below the mat top surface, it can be run anywhere you want to get the heat distributed and avoid your toilet or underneath the vanity, and you don't have to deal with a separate step of getting the floor flat again after installing the mat, you'd realize the advantages of this new product based on an established, many year track record of successful installations. Talk about vindictive.

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  2. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

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    Location:
    Minnesota
    OK JIM when and where have you used it? Orange heat to be exact? and how long has that job been proven to hold up over time if its a NEW PRODUCT??

    C'Mon Jim........ I know youre gonna spin it towards the uncoupling version and not the Heat version but we all know what that picture is of "orange heat" so you may have to wiggle a little harder....



    Lets recap your digression this last few days shall we Jim.

    A. You have slipped back into linking that texas website again, attempting to redirect Terrys traffic.
    B. Reverted back to linking the Orange stuff.
    C. Made A mockery of yourself and proven multiple times you are NOT in any way an actual hands on crafstmen like the pros you argue with time and again.

    Still there is hope, while you have indeed have lost any chance of Custom orange Chuck taylors.

    We can still try and arrange for an orange waterproof wallet, One in which you can keep your 3 Workshop certificates dry in while you work up a sweat copyig/pasting/typing.


    Talk soon,
  3. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

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    New York
    This is warranted.....

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  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    The difference between a pro and a non-pro sometimes only depends on whether you get someone to pay you for your work - I only directly help out friends with their projects, and do not expect any reimbursement from them. That I give my knowledge freely here without expectation of monetary reimbursement does not mean that that information is incorrect. John is the one repeatedly posting the picture of Ditra heat and saying there's no mechanical bond of the thinset to the mat. Anyone that is not blind can see that there is. We both have an agenda...mine is to help people understand how the manufacturer deems the product involved to be used properly to achieve the desirable result and maintain a warranty, John's appears to be to expand his ego and promote his company.
  5. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

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    66
    Location:
    New York
    Say it again...say it again....

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  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
    New England
    Ditra Heat is an evolution of a well-established product - the original Ditra which is still very much a viable product. It works as an uncoupling mat with the added benefit of allowing easy design of a customized floor warming system. Heating wires have been around for a long time...Ditra has been around for a long time...I did say it was based on an established product. It took Schluter over a year (and maybe many more) to work out the kinks on this in the lab and test locations to get it to the retail version that is available now. Choice is good, this is another choice that solves some issues with electric floor warming as it has been done for years. Given Schluter's track record, and the advantages of this novel method, just like Ditra and Kerdi, I think you'll begin to see numerous competitive, similar products. It will take awhile given patents and whatnot, but just like there are lots of Ditra competitors, there are now lots of Kerdi competitors as well; the same will happen. Why wait, though? IF it suits your needs, go for it. For a pro, comfortable with leveling the floor after installation of a traditional mat or cable system, it will still take more time (and time is money), but it is something they know and have done before. For someone new to this, you only have to prep the floor once (it should be flat, like any of the other systems, suitable for tile before you start with the mat), you get the mat down, the wire in where you want it, and the risk of damaging a cable once you're at that state is almost non-existent. That's not true with any other available system out there in the market today.
  7. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

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    66
    Location:
    New York
    Until Laticrete comes out with one.
  8. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Minnesota
    Jim: are you going to clear things up and honestlY answer the above question? Or continue to mislead people into thinking you actually insalled and tested the heat? Clear this up for all of us?
  9. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    611
    Location:
    Montreal

    This is so untrue , shame , shame , shame.


    Flextherm is the pioneer and has not only proven record of it , but they have ( had ) the first fully protected and incorporated heating cable , designed few years ago .

    The combination of the Flexsnap and Flextherm heating cable makes it a winner on all fronts.

    But you wouldn't know that -- not even bother to check the facts -- , why would you ?

    Spread more of the same BS with disregard of the other products .
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
    New England
    If you read what I've posted more than once, I said I saw a demo of Ditra Heat being installed, and touched the stuff, and heard from them how it works and could see it myself. The actual heating cable concept is pretty simple and nothing novel...locking it into an uncoupling mat is. There is no other uncoupling mat out there today that this technique could be incorporated into. Putting the two together in a manner that is reliable and repeatable, then determining safe operating parameters plus being able to actually manufacture the stuff takes time...at least a year - in 2013, they said they had passed all of the tests for reliability and were tweaking the final configuration for manufacturing ease and easy field use. The stuff has passed the same durability for a tiled installation as any method and received as high as a heavy rating on the Robinson floor test. It works. There's not much to go wrong with a wire that has been made for many years. The only thing unique about this one is the specific insulation size was chosen to lock into the mat's slots, but there's nothing special about the wire itself. While another thermostat might work, this one was specifically programmed to accommodate the thermal mass of the thinset and the proximity to the air pockets in the uncoupling membrane to ensure the mat and the install remained reliable over time. This is why this is a 'System'...it is why a Kerdi shower is a 'System'...the parts are engineered and manufactured to specifically work together as integral parts. Nobody else makes a 'system' like this, which by definition makes it novel and may be patentable. Patents don't last forever, though, and Schluter now has some competitors, where previously, they were the sole provider of that method. FWIW, Schluter is the only company that has entries in the TCNA handbook that were developed specifically for them, not an adaptation of a generic product (like using a membrane with a clamping drain, or the use of a cbu in a shower). That other companies now make products that mimic theirs is a testament to the fact that they work. And, to all of the people that slammed Schluter on saying that drywall will work in a bonded, load bearing membrane shower, Laticrete's new Hydro-Ban sheet membrane's data sheet says the same thing, listing drywall as an acceptable substrate for their material.

    If you want to make a traditional shower, fine, I'll help guide you on what is required. If you prefer to use cbu for some reason on your floor, I'll help you do it according to industry standards and manufacturer's instructions. But, in the process, I may suggest where other things may be a better choice and why, but I won't hold it against you or cease to help if you either disagree or prefer not to for one reason or another. What I won't stand up for is misusing materials or making statements that do not match industry standards...the refrain - I've been doing it that way for years and never had a problem just don't cut it with me and often, with the experiences of the industry. Things change, things evolve, doing it the same way as you've done it in the past may have worked with your specific situation (or not), but the best practices call for changes when new materials and expectations become the norm. Material science, computer design, computer modeling have made all sorts of products possible today that literally could not have been made not long ago. Don't knock it until you take the time to investigate and understand the benefits and maybe faults...the world is not the same as even yesterday. I have the luxury of being able to spend a fair amount of time investigating...if 'we always did it this way' was the norm, nothing new would be invented and things wouldn't improve.
  11. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    Location:
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    [video=youtube;4coi65CT1G4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4coi65CT1G4[/video]
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    kerdi
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    mongo
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    does
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  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Location:
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    Sounds like a copy of Troba-Plus, which has been around for awhile.

    Schluter-TROBA-PLUS is a reliable and permanently effective drainage layer for use in horizontal applications over sloped waterproofing layers. It consists of a high-impact, studded polyethylene sheet covered on one side with a water-permeable polypropylene filter fabric. The fabric-enhanced, studded side on which the surface covering assembly rests acts as a high-capacity drainage plane. TROBA-PLUS provides additional protection for the waterproofing layer. The closely positioned studs, shaped like truncated cones, have an extremely high load-bearing capacity. In addition, loads are distributed evenly over the entire waterproofing surface. The open area between the studs and the fabric creates an insulated air space that protects the waterproofing membrane against harmful thermal stress. Moreover, the insulated air space provides an effective sound barrier.
    TROBA-PLUS stilts the mortar bed by 5/16" (8 mm) over the entire waterproofing surface. Thus, irregularities in the waterproofing layer that can lead to the collection of water, such as uneven sections or elevations at the seams, are effectively bridged. Major defects in the slope of the waterproofing layer can be corrected prior to the laying of TROBA-PLUS by applying an appropriate mortar.
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    too
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
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    Ditra Drain is an uncoupling mat that also allows some drainage...depending on the area, may be all you need. Over living space, Troba and Troba Plus (the Plus version has the fabric filter if you need it - you get a choice based on your situation) provides a more robust water management feature and the other points in the description I included above. Based on your situation, you can use any or all of the products to achieve your unique situation. Sound transmission through a mostly hard surface can be abated somewhat by having an engineered gap, so using something like one of these drainage mats can help minimize sound transmission through the assembly, which, can be a very useful thing. Your situation, your choice.

    My point, though, was that many of these products you're posting are copies of what has been around for a long time. Not to say one is better than the other, but to point out that the need for this sort of thing has already been thought about, and a product developed that works. Copying something is a typical reinforcement of the viability and usefulness of a product, just like there are now copies of Kerdi and Ditra.
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    cheap
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  19. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Location:
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    Kerdi was first introduced in 1987, but didn't make it to the USA for awhile. The same year the Ditra was introduced. So, it's been sold for over 25-years in some places...it has a good track record and as the patent has run out, numerous copy-cats in the past year or two. Schluter has a factory in Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada, where most of their sheet membranes are made for the US and Canada (not all). They make most sizes of KerdiBoard at a factory in Plattsburg, NY. Most of the profiles are made in Canada and those sold in the USA are 'finished' in Plattsburg (they punch the holes in the tile leg there rather than at the factory - the pieces are stronger during bulk shipping that way).
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    thin​
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
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