Layout lines on Ditra

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by jadnashua, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,806
    Location:
    New England
    Some complain they don't like Ditra because it won't take conventional layout lines and as a result, spend time to prefill the holes one day, and come back the other, wasting a bunch of time. FWIW, there are ways that work, and are only a slight variation on those conventional ways. While prefilling the holes may make it easier on the knees, a good pair of kneepads or a kneeling pad work if you find the mat so uncomfortable (it's far less obnoxious than kneeling on say cbu to me, though, not counting the fact that that stuff will wear out the knees of a pair of jeans very quickly!).

    If snapping a chalk-line, you need an extra (quick, cheap) step - get yourself a $0.99 special drug-store brand hair spray and hit the line with it...it will stay there and, if you've followed any of my other threads, you'd realize it will make NO difference in the performance of the uncoupling membrane since thinset does not stick to the mat in the first place on top!

    If the needed line is short enough where something like a straight-edge and a Sharpie(TM) would work, use one of those.

    Or, join the modern world and use a laser.

    Some people do not like change, but modern materials usually come around because they have some advantages, and often, require change to implement. If you desire those advantages, trying to apply old techniques may not always be the best way.
  2. dhagin

    dhagin builder:anti-builder

    Messages:
    108
    Location:
    oahu
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Does Hairspray on Ditra effect the Uncoupling Properties of Ditra???

    I would assume Jim has checked with Schluter on the hair spray idea. I think the idea is hair brained myself.


    I think Ditra is designed for thin-set not to stick to it. With hairspray you might change how the product preforms..... Scary to loose a warranty over hairspray I think. Best call Schluter technical support before following this hair ball idea....

    LETS BREAK FOR A CHEER



    The Ditra Cheer


    [​IMG]

    Ditra's Number one Fan - Jadnashua (The Ditra Cheerleader)

    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  4. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    New York
    When Jim gets back from Laticrete he will be a whore for Strata Mat and 254Platinum.
    The lunches and dinners are better in Bethany.
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I think his head will explode. Because he will have to find a way to sell products that have a positive dovetail lock. Don't have any lock. Have vapour transmission holes and don't. I believe the Latictrete course he is taking just for the purpose of figuring out John's newest eBook.

    This image (Shown below with an installer using Hydro Ban to waterproof Kerdi and Kerdi Board) haunts him - makes him question his entire universe.

    [​IMG]

    Maybe John is covering up some hairspray here in this picture?
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    [​IMG]

    Maybe Jim is going as a covert spy? Perhaps he is asking questions about LAticrete's new sheet membrane so he can sell against it when promoting Kerdi ???

    Might be a reason....

    Maybe he is going to ask how to apply Hydro Ban since 98% of his posts about liquid membranes say they can get pin holes...

    Never knew Laticrete had a new sheet membrane.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,806
    Location:
    New England
    The person who approved my attendance to Laticrete's class knew full well of my association with the forums I post to. I call them as I see them, but base the info on the manufacturer's info and instructions, not someone who thinks they know better than the people that designed it. Getting more familiar with available products is the goal. That's not until June, so plans could change.

    If you were ever to properly install a tile on Ditra Heat, you'd find out just how things are locked together. Since thinset doesn't stick to the membrane, something is holding it in place, and it's the mechanical key into the membrane of the thinset that does it. It's not magic. It's not suction. It's science and good engineering.
  8. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    New York
    Thats the only reason you were approved, you post to forums. You dont buy products, you dont install products you recommend products.
    Laticrete is smart to have you at the PTK. All you are is a marketing ploy for them just like Schluter.
    Why else would a company take up limited space at a PTK for a DIY'r and not have the seat filled with a actual setter or new rep or a distributor. Call it what it is Jim, you are only asked to attend cause you post on sites that get traffic to sell the products. Instead of having people go to the manufacturer website and have to read a data sheet they have you.
    Bravo to Schluter and Laticrete but dont kid yourself Jim and think they allowed you to attend so you can learn about the products cause you are interested for yourself. When I say learn about the products thats all you do..learn. Knowing what its like to install is an entirely a different animal. All you are is book smart about the products not real setting smart.
    The reps for companies cant push their products on the forums you post at. Thats where you come in. Your a non paid company rep that can push products.
    Just realize what you really are.
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,806
    Location:
    New England
    I focus on trying to learn how the products were intended to be installed, and how to do it to retain the warranty. Some people do it like they 'think' it should be, and never look at the instructions, or try to rationalize combining various concepts that have no chance of being successful. Like, how would you ever think a bonded mudbed over an uncoupling membrane would work? Everyone makes mistakes, some are doozies. Crowing about it as a good practice is even worse.

    One does not have to work with the materials on a daily basis to recognize and understand when they are not being used as intended. Sometimes, that's a viable idea, sometimes it is not. If getting the word from the 'horse's mouth' is bad, maybe you should try it for yourself and maybe your opinion may change.

    Back in the 'old' days, before you could hang out a shingle and practice in any trade, you needed to operate as an apprentice to learn. These days, anyone can get a business license and call themselves a pro tiler. I do not claim to be a pro, but have touched and worked with various products, albeit on a limited basis. But, I've been shown by some of the best in the industry, and can recognize when something is done right or not. There's lots of people out there called pros that haven't a clue if you believe the TCNA studies that over 75% of the tiled showers built in the USA failed in at least one or more characteristics of an accepted practice. That doesn't say much for most people claiming to be pros. That I'm hoping to try to improve that statistic with some basic understanding for those DIY'ers here shouldn't be taken as something like 'do as I say', but to promote it like it was designed and intended to be used based on the people that developed and warrant the stuff. And, to do it in a manner that is more likely for a DIY'er to be able to accomplish.

    I've seen some pros do some things that are just pathetic, like use nails as spacers on a Kerdi shower wall. Or, so many that think you can put the liner flat on the floor and expect things to work long-term with good results. The list could go on. All from people that were getting paid for the work that may have been doing it that way for years. Pathetic. Helping others understand how it's done and what to look for and to be able to recognize egregious faults shouldn't be looked at as a bad thing.
  10. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    New York
    Yes one does. Otherwise you are just reading the instructions.
    Its not, but use words like "i have seen", "i have heard" and "i have been told" not "i have done". That's egregious.
    I moved a huge electrical panel and helped a master electrician feed wire to it. That does not make me a electrician.
    No you cant without doing it.
    Glad you said promote. It's been my point all along on what you do.

    Regular people off the street just dont get to go to Laticrete or Schluter. Did you ask Matt or Peter if you could attend the Laticrete PTK? They are only 2-3 days max besides. No way in the world you gain the product knowledge from an instruction manual or hands on,in that time frame. You are there for a reason...to promote product plain and simple. Just regurgitate the info in the nice binders you get at class but dont make it sound like your an instructor.
  11. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Just-A-Drip - what's the back story here?


    Is Jim stepping out of line on the old John Bridge forum now? Glad to see you here keeping him in check.

    Don't forget he has taken three not two or one Schluter workshops. I guess we really can't trust his Laticrete advice until he takes his third workshop.

    I have only taken one Laticrete class and it was soley on Hydro Ban.

    I bet Jim has never even build a shower with liquid waterproofing. Yet he worries about pin holes on his installs...

    I love that. He does talk like he does do this for a living online. I like you would like to see him post more truthfully.

    "Having never done this, I prefer Schluter...."

    "I think John is a ____ bag, go to the John Bridge Forum...."

    "This one time in band camp, we used Ditra......"

    "I've build two bathrooms before, both out of foam and Kerdi - so, this is the only way for you to build your shower. That, and my sensa loves it."
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC


    The Ditra Cheer


    [​IMG]

    Ditra's Number one Fan - Jadnashua (The Ditra Cheerleader)



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  13. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    New York
    Go back in your corner,sit down and be quiet just like Schluter has told you.
    And i would like to see you treat posters with more respect trying to get your points across. Your opinions/facts get lost/disregarded by your incessant narcissistic personality.
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Ouch.

    LOL - I think you and Jim had a disagreement on the John Bridge forum.... I'll be nicer - promise.
  15. eurob

    eurob In the trades

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Montreal

    You are '' not allowed '' much disagreement on sponsored products , there in the '' all ends '' John .

    One is sufficient to bore you to death with same , same , same ---while available literature is overwhelming --- and parade the contradictions as '' not present ''.

    I guess Laticrete is looking at the Schluter's example of '' pushing products '' on forums ...... something I did propose them few years ago , without success .

    From an engineer POV -- reading data and recommending products -- is just fine , until you use them -- tile setters POV -- . And when you know a little more than the usual , you might think twice where the responsibility leads -- point fingers to ....?! -- you.

    There is no escape to the super tight academic machine ......
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,806
    Location:
    New England
    If you believe the TCNA's assessment that 75% of the tiled showers built in the USA do not work properly because they had build mistakes in them, (and some believe it is closer to 90%), one would have to say that many 'pros' out there don't have a clue. That today's products have some margin for error built in helps cover up some of the issues. Using a product, and using it as it was intended to get the best performance does not always coincide. One does not need to use it every day to see that. I never said understanding the technique and being able to read the instructions meant an automatic ability to perform the task well or efficiently, but there's a huge amount of people that one, never read the instructions, and two, don't follow them even if they did, or three, understand what they've read. If I can help make that percentage the slightest bit better, I will. ANd, I will continue to point out actions that contradict the manufacturer's instructions and will void their warranty. I'm not the tile police that has any authority, but I do try to provide accurate information, something, some people here have trouble with.

    This discussion is similar in concept with one ongoing in the toilet forum here right now...back-to-back toilet installation, codes verses manufacturer's instructions. While the installation in question may meet current codes, those have not been updated to today's realities that the manufacturers have long since identified and specifically state how to get it to work. Plumbers that had been doing it one way for decades, just do not understand the realities of the new products they are installing, and refuse to read the instructions - leading to maybe a code compliant installation, but one that works lousy. Tile setters seem to work in the same manner...I've been doing it like this for years, why do I have to change? Well, products evolve, installation procedures change...you cannot keep doing it like you 'always did without problems'. Old time thinking only works if you apply it to old-time materials in an old-time setting, with old-time expectations...things are not the same. What worked awhile ago, may no longer work. There may be ways to make it work better. A good manufacturer recognizes that, and offers training and materials to help.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  17. eurob

    eurob In the trades

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Montreal

    I like the photo :)
  18. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,806
    Location:
    New England
    It became available for sale April 1, 2014. At least that's what their documentation says...have not tried to actually find any. The expiration of Schluter's patent on Kerdi has opened up the opportunity for others to imitate them. Only time will tell how well they work or to have as big of an installed track record. But, it seems that the material is similar. Choice is good. Experience will tell.

    And, while I'm sure this will burn some people, they list 'drywall' as an acceptable substrate, just like Schluter does. Maybe they know something the detractors don't.

    It is applied like Kerdi, 2" overlap, but for now at least, does not have the same range of accessories. If you're excessive/compulsive, it has a higher perm rating than KerdiDs, but both are still better than the current specs called for in the industry.

    When they have been on the market as long, it would be unusual to not know they existed, but it's only been available a couple of weeks...give me a break.
  19. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    So it's better than Kerdi. Better than Kerdi DS. And it comes with a completed line up of thin-sets and grouts in the same family.....

    Why would you use Kerdi in the first place?
  20. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,806
    Location:
    New England
    Kerdi has an established track record. The new guys do not have a complete lineup of accessories (that may come). Say you use a 1/2" supply line...their only pipe penetration available now is listed as for 3/4". The substrate must be MUCH flatter before installation, it is thicker, it must be installed in a very particular way, much more strict and restrictive than Kerdi, and better is a subjective thing. To some, a thinner material is easier to form onto surfaces without buildup at the seams. Sort of like asking is a Ford truck better than a Chevy...depends on what you're looking for and your expectations (and, often, what your father drove).

    Just like most stuff out there, the best product is the one that suits your needs.
Similar Threads: Layout lines
Forum Title Date
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Shower Design - How to layout six body jets Jul 7, 2014
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog tub drain thru joist layout Mar 21, 2013
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Bath and shower layout too unconventional? Apr 30, 2012
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Please help me with bathroom shower plumbing/layout questions! Feb 14, 2012
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Tub Drain Layout Opinions Sep 11, 2010

Share This Page