Layout lines on Ditra

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by jadnashua, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The testing agency that Noble used to get the A118.10 on their TS sheet certification is dated 2001. Kerdi came out in 1987, but not brought to the USA for a number of years. I'll do some more research. It's certainly possible it may have been sold in the USA, but that doesn't mean it was the first in use.
  2. eurob

    eurob In the trades

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    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Roberto this is so funny. Jim has the info right there. He only needs to call.

    I heard the story over dinner. At my place. We had Greek Burgers and a Greek Dinner. I invited over other tile men from Vancouver and made my apprentice man the BBQ. Jim is researching and has no idea the facts.... I love it. The man is blinded by his ambition to sell Kerdi and Ditra to the facts.

    And Roberto if you use Noble's sheets membrane you can use any thin-set.... Not just the non-modifed kind.

    I believe the nuclear structure of the finer mesh coating has been designed so all the molecule mass can encapsulate the individual strands...... LOL That or they a product that is just plain easier to work with. In the regard to choosing thin-sets that is.....

    And I have only been to one Noble Workshop. And that was more like a product demo at Golden Flooring here in Vancouver. Who bets Jim does not ever call Noble?
  4. eurob

    eurob In the trades

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    Gotcha ;) , now I know that all the other are not copies -- all of them need modified and no limitations ( NA ) to only unmods -- :rolleyes:
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    When I get reliable information, I will respond, I've requested info from those involved. In the meantime, I won't make assumptions and make fun of, or attempt to belittle those involved.

    Schluter started out primarily manufacturing tile profiles. For decades, bullnose tile have been uncommon in most of the world, and there was a need to make a reliable, aesthetic way to both protect and preserve those edges. Over the years, their product line expanded, as does most companies out there.

    Laticrete started out making mortars, and introduced the first commercially viable modified thinsets, and is common in any industry, expanded their product line over the years. If you happen to look at their current catalog, you'll see "NEW" next to a number of products including Strata_Mat, all of the NXT product line, half of the products listed in the Hydro-Ban category, and several other products.

    SOme of their products compete directly, most do not, nor is the focus of the two companies along the same direction.
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    OK. I'll wait too.

    [​IMG]

    But I'll tease you about being a pretend builder while you try and find out if Noble has been used for only 13 years! LOL Jim when you took your first training class did they hypnotize you? Did you get asked to look into the spinning Hydrophobic Vortex? Jim look into the Vortex - Look Deep at the spinning V-o-r-t-e-x

    V

    O

    R

    T

    E

    X

    Now go sell our products JIM

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    As far as I can tell from reliable resources, here's the story...

    The first time the B422 procedure for a bonded membrane shower was introduced into the TCNA handbook was in 2001 at the request of Schluter to use their membrane with the bonded flange that they had started to make. Schluter had gone around to various drain manufacturers around the USA since the introduction of Kerdi to try to find someone to make them for them, but they could not find anyone to do it so they essentially went into that business and had them made. FWIW, they're shipping in the order of 4-500K a year now, at a decent price, so it seems those companies weren't very forward thinking. So, the first time there was a bonded structural membrane procedure in the industry bible (the TCNA handbook) was 2001, and it was promoted by Schluter, primarily to incorporate their drain assembly with their bonded membrane (Kerdi), as part of their Kerdi Shower System.

    That TCNA procedure calls for a membrane meeting the ANSI spec A118.10. That spec was introduced by ANSI in 1993. So, in theory, prior to that, there was no spec to compare product performance against, nor any TCNA procedure to build a qualified shower (that took another 8-years). Any use of either Kerdi or NobleTS or any other product that may have been around, was done based strictly on the manufacturer's reputation and provided instructions, and not directly in accordance with the nationally recognized industry guidelines. That they could work is not in question, but whether they were approved by the plumbing code and local jurisdictions for those purposes was. An easily searched reference on that is when Massachusetts first listed NobleTS and Kerdi as acceptable in that state (Noble beat Schluter by a few months in getting that introduced to MA, but the rest of the country for the most part because of the TCNA B422 introduction had been using it since it was introduced, and available to anyone making compatible products). If you want to get picky, Schluter's drain was the basis along with their Kerdi for B422, and thus, was the first to be approved, but it is a fine point.

    John was right, NobleTS was introduced before Kerdi - 1982 verses 1987. They perform similar jobs - provide a bonded waterproofing system. The installation instructions are not the same, and you cannot use the same procedure between the two and achieve a warranted, reliable job, though. The similarity is that to get a proper seam, you must overlap the material at least 2". Here is a big difference, though, with NobleTS, you use two beads of a sealant you caulk in place, place the edges together, then spread the material to embed the fleece between the two. Noble TS is over 3x thicker, and a corner may use one of their preformed ones or be cut and overlapped (you can do this with Kerdi as well, and was the only way prior to the introduction of the preformed corners), but you'll have a situation where it will have three layers or more - with the sealant in between, nearly 0.1" buildup. Kerdi is bonded with the same thinset you use to place it on the substrate, and make the seams. Their corners are made of thinner material, and again, you may need as many as three layers in places where the corner, the sheets, and the banding material go. But, the buildup is much less. NobleTS is 0.030" thick. Kerdi is 0.008" thick, and the Kerdiband is 0.005" thick, so the actual corner buildup is considerably thinner, and you do not need to use a special sealant to make it work, or to bond it to the drain flange. To NobleTS advantage, is that it is less vapor permeable, which in a steam shower is a good thing, but KerdiDS also meets the same spec for a commercial steam shower, and is still only 0.020" thick. Because of the sealant with the seams on NobleTS, you can flood test the system quicker, and that can be a useful advantage verses waiting long enough for the mortar to cure (nominally 24-hours).

    Prior to the advent of the Schluter bonded Kerdi drain assembly, there was no TCNA approved bonded membrane procedure to build a shower. It may have been used, but wouldn't have passed everywhere since there were no standards for defining it. Prior to inventing and having the Kerdi drain produced, the TCNA guideline didn't exist. Any sheet membrane manufacturer used their own method to produce a bond to what was the commonly used clamping drain. Noble still has the materials to perform that task, essentially the same way it was done way back at the origination. They also have other drains that get bonded on the surface with sealant. Schluter has a conversion drain to raise the assembly, and provides essentially the same bonded flange as in their normal plastic cemented in flange if you already have a clamping drain installed. Both companies have all metal drains where those are required for fire code or other local ordinances.

    Both systems are good, they each have their advantages, and to get it to work, you must follow their specific instructions and use the required materials. Once you've applied either membrane to the substrate properly, they both pass the industry requirements for a waterproof, bonded surface membrane shower and do not leak. Both NobleTS and KerdiDS exceed the requirements for a commercial steam shower's perm rating (0.15 verses 0.18), so the actual difference in total installed performance will be more of an installer's actual skill rather than a difference in material. (Note, the system install value may differ compared to the sheet perm rating by some, but both are still comfortably within the industry requirements).

    So, it comes down to what you are comfortable with, and, especially if you're dealing with smaller tile, how thick of a buildup you might get in the corners, and how comfortable you are using the sealant required on the NobleTS system as to which ends up the best for your job. Personally, I prefer Schluter's product line. If a paying customer demanded NobleTS, I wouldn't have any issues using it, as it's a fine product, too. To me, I think there are more places to make an error with Noble's system, but if good workmanship and knowledge is utilized, they are both fine. Often, it comes down to the installers preferences, biases, and perceptions...what is an issue to one, may be a benefit to the other. John has a lot of biases, and this pushes him in one direction...me, I could go either way, depending on the specific situation involved. And, as I've said before, 1/4" glass is no more waterproof than 1/2" glass...it just depends on what else you are asking it to do for you in the equation. In between two hard surfaces, tile and the wall or pan, one is neither better or worse at keeping things waterproof, but might offer some other benefit for your specific application. They both pass the same industry tests for a successful, reliable, long-lasting shower IF you put it together like it was designed.
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Surely Hell has just frozen over..... OMG I'm going to buy a lottery ticket today.
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    But, the industry accepted procedure to build a shower with it was not approved until Schluter produced their bonded membrane drain (B422.x), and then, TCNA approved it as a method, based on it in 2001. There was no industry standard to validate a bonded, load-bearing waterproofing membrane until 1993 when A118.10 was defined and companies were able to have their products verified it met those requirements, long after both Noble and Schluter had products out there. Prior to that, it was a 'trust me' situation, and maybe a fight with the local approval authorities.

    Schluter was the first to be approved based on B422, primarily because they went to the trouble to complete the bonded membrane shower system with the introduction of a drain specifically designed for that class of material. Prior to that, you lost some of the benefit of a surface bonded membrane because of having to adapt to a clamping drain...that required a hat shaped membrane, sealant, and be filled with deck mud and had weep holes. Essentially, a small, but always present area of deck mud on top of the membrane near the drain. That method is still used by Noble, if you do not use one of their surface drains. The wettest part of the shower, where all of the water accumulates, still has a hunk of deckmud when done that way. The surface, bonded membrane drain eliminates all of that, and is the basis of the B422 procedure that brought the industry to the modern world with a complete system of surface bonding, and only the setting materials on top of the membrane.
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    BLAA BLAA BLAA

    Jim you keep blocking out this little puppy of Noble's. Turns any drain into a B422 drain. These Noble Flex Flashings out before Kerdi had a drain. They cost under thirty bucks. Last time I saw a Kerdi drain for sale it was over a hundred.

    [​IMG]

    Did you know that Noble's products have a better perm rating than Kerdi Jim? Or do you block that out as well? Do you know that with Kerdi you have to use a Kerdi Drain but with Noble any approved clamping drain works?

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    You obviously don't read what I write...when I compared NobleTS to Kerdi, one of the things I included was the perm ratings. Which, only apply for rational use when building a steam shower. And, then, the actual membrane for a commercial one from Schluter would be KerdiDS. While the assembled perm rating for both is different, the actual membrane perm rating for NobleTS is only 0.03 better than KerdiDS...the builder skill and assembly choices will make far more difference than the actual membrane used.

    And, you seem to have missed the point about converting or using a mudbed with the Noble hat...depends on whether you're doing a bonded mudbed over a slab or one over a subfloor (which would be much deeper chunk of deckmud). But, in either case, you have deckmud at the wettest portion of the shower - the area around the drain. Schluter's choice to do this today is their conversion drain, which you seal in place and replace the clamping ring and the upper drain assembly with a bonded flange, almost the same as the glue-on one. Noble has some that are surface bonded, too, and they are not inexpensive, either. Keep in mind, the Kerdi drain kit comes with the inside and outside corners for your shower build and the seals for your shower valve and showerhead, some KerdiFix, and the adapter ring, so the cost is not only for the drain itself. Apples to apples, this is not. Since Schluter sells, systems, they sell you the parts you'll need in the package. People are less likely to try to improvise, when they have all the parts designed to work together, rather than trying to assemble them on their own.

    Attached Files:

  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Jim the drawing above is a split drawing.

    The part on the left is no different than a Kerdi install. Except that the drain costs less and the waterproofing material is better.

    clamping drains need a 30 mil membrane most times - or 40 mils.

    Look at the pictures below. 3 are 30 mil thick and 1 is only 8 mil thick. Which do you think is the thinnest product?

    Option A
    [​IMG]

    Option B
    [​IMG]

    Option C
    [​IMG]

    Option D
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    And, if you looked at the Schluter conversion drain assembly, you'd see that you do not put ANY of the liner or hat or whatever in place to make a seal...you use the KerdiFix, they include in the kit to seal the adapter to the lower part of the drain after retaining the bolts and throw the rest away, and that then bolts down making a permanent seal - the part on top is just like the conventional glue-in drain flange, and you bond your surface membrane to it without having a hunk of deckmud on top of your waterproofing (a la a conventional liner and drain) and there's no need for weep holes or to keep them open. Why one would go with a surface membrane, then put a chunk of deckmud with weepholes into a conventional drain assembly just does not make sense to me...but, you like it, so it must be great:rolleyes:. Now, I did say that they have their own design drain assembly if you are not trying to reuse or modify a conventional clamping drain, but then, the costs, when you compare everything that is in the Schluter kit, is close.

    So, as I see it, you can use a clamping drain with the NobleTS system and have a hunk of deckmud around your drain, use one of their surface drains and avoid that, or in all cases, whether starting from fresh or converting, the Schluter Kerdi drain always uses the surface flange as the top layer and you don't have to mix up more deck mud after your base has cured and then you can install your membrane - just another step that can get messed up, and another wait for that to cure before tiling.
  14. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

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    Jim that hunk of deckmud is in fact a safety net AKA as a weep system, it also doubles to help us lower the overall height of the ugly JUMBO shower curbs we keep seeing these days, it also accomadates the fact that many times we get to a shower project after the plumber has installed the drain flange tight to the subfloor? I find a lot of clients dont want to back up and re-do the plumbing for the orange drain, and they doubl-y do not like the idea of forcing it to work with the adaptor kit? Just what ive found out in the field, the real jobsite world..... You are not experienced in the field of building enough to even argue this. You are just reciting jargon and arguing to sell another brand and promote a texas website......Its that simple. I see you for what you are.

    I may add further, That as far as I can see here on this site, and your texas site, and then just taking a general look online, that it seems to be your favorite shower system or Brand or method is the one I find when i search for failed showers? especially flood tested shower pans.

    XO-Redshoe
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The NobleFlex drain flashings come in two versions...bonded mudbed, and unbounded mudbed (my description - 3/4" or 1.5" heights). The Kerdi conversion drain's tileable surface at the outer edge of the top surface of the drain flange (about 6" from the center) sits at 2-1/16" from the bottom surface of the clamping drain (everything else is replaced). So, after you screw on your drain assembly to the Noble system when you are using the 1.5" flashing, approximately like that shown in John's option C, the tile end up...almost the same place. Done over a slab with a bonded mudbed, yes, the tiling surface will be lower. Or, replace the drain, which is an option on any of them...or, choose the system that works out best for your application.

    I believe, the whole purpose of making and certifying a surface bonded waterproof membrane is to avoid the mudbed ever getting wet and just use it to produce your slope and often, straighten up the floor. The independent testing of the Kerdi Shower systems says it works without leaking, when following instructions. Why would I want a secondary path for water there, and, as in any mudbed directly beneath tile, it will become wet since there is no additional membrane applied on top over that area? If they do, and you believe the stuff works (I do), why leave the weep holes there at all?

    IOW, why would you want a mudbed (even though it is not huge) sitting above your surface bonded waterproofing layer AKA a conventional clamping drain, when you do not need it? I thought the whole idea was to keep the minimum amount of stuff in a shower totally dry, not waterproof it, then throw some more deck mud on top of it. If the height is that big a deal, tear out the drain, and put in one that provides all of the benefits. If it is a typical subfloor, you could use your inside cutter and have that old one off and the 'proper' one on in less time than we've been typing about it and avoid that deckmud there entirely, at least on the surface of your membrane.
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
  16. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

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    Jim wrong ! again you show us your lack of experience , specifically weep drains and why they are there. It is becoming a full time job just correcting your misinformation. But we always hear about what you do know. The manual to installing orange foam. Get educated on thinbed showers and flex flashing and try again. -redshoe
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Weep drains are used because in a conventional shower (or Noble's use of the drain connector), the waterproofing layer is beneath a mudbed (at least around the drain assembly). Tile and grout are not waterproof, so you need an alternate path for that moisture to escape...that's pretty basic, and yes, I've understood that for a very long time.

    When using a surface membrane system as designed by Schluter, and expressed in B422 TCNA handbook...there are NO weepholes because the waterproof layer is immediately beneath the tile and continues to the drain with a bonded flange. Whether you use Nobles surface drain and bond to it or use their drain hat and use a conventional drain on top of it, is your choice, but the reason for the weep holes is the same as if you have a conventional preslope/liner/mudbed.

    This video shows what I'm talking about...a hunk of deckmud around the drain that requires the weep holes because the tile and grout will allow it to get there. http://noblecompany.com/resources/category/tile-installation The Kerdi shower system has the entire shower waterproofed, and no secondary drain (weep holes) are required or wanted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TVBa2C3Z3co#t=7 This shows how the Kerdi conversion drain goes in. Most pros, if they used this, would probably opt to do a mudbed, and if you did, you'd bond the thing almost as if you were using the pvc or abs cemented version. This video shows using the foam tray, but the main point of it is how to use the conversion drain.
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Waterproofing directly below tile. 2" drain line. Bonded Membrane. Different from the Kerdi install how?

    There are a few differences in these two installs.

    * Any thin-set can be used. No non-modifed only hurdles
    * Better Perm Rating. Not a steam shower but still a plus
    * 30 mil thick membrane - not 8 (handy when 20 other trades are working on the home)
    * 5' wide roll
    * tied in to the plumbers two piece clamping drain no problem (no conversion drain required)
  19. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

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    Couple clean TS installs there! Jim is confused and causing confusion. Cant think outside the orange box syndrome.
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    [​IMG]

    Maybe some chromotherapy lighting.... this floating tub is almost done.
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