Kinetico softener head rebuild with pics

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Jon Heron, Jun 9, 2009.

  1. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    Resin cannot get up into the valve if laid down on it side. Those who understand how a Kinetico works wouldn't make this statement. It is like saying if you change the number of people using water, you would have to change the metering disc.
  2. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    Actually the yellow pins were an earlier feature. All Kineticos needing a brine draw will use the check balls.
  3. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    Needing a new "whatever it is" is inconclusive. Still waiting for it to be identified.
  4. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    Either the balls fell on the floor or somewhere near by when it was disassembled or not replaced the last time it re-assembled.
  5. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Water Solutions, thanks for the great information, I have not had many chances to work on Kineticos, but I have always admired their strong, simple design. Your replies have been extremely helpful in continuing to grow the industries knowledge of this exceptional system. In the light commercial field, a particular Kinetico dealer in the Los Angeles area was always a thorn in our side due to their staffs knowledge of commercial applications, and their high quality equipment. It was at least as good as the 9000 valve, and they were our only competition. Keep the information coming, the people who actually work in the field or have a desire to grow their knowledge truly appreciate it.

    Thanks!
  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    In this case whatever it is is the lost balls, that's assuming you as a Kinetico salesman know what you're talking about.

    Now why don't you answer his questions as to where he can get parts etc., or do you have more silly questions to ask him as you have the other 3-4 people that have posted in this thread with a Kinetico that didn't work?

    Also, enlighten us oh great Kinetico salesman, what keeps resin from going up into the inlet if the tank is laid down, or as you said, turned upside down?

    I see your good buddy is kissing up. Makes one wonder what happened in Vegas.
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    LOL you've got to be kidding!! Or just getting home from a night out consuming adult beverages.

    The people that posted here with Kinetico softeners that aren't working may not agree with your assessment of Water Solutions being helpful but...

    What does his information do for you or other dealers/service people except show them that Kinetico is not repairable by them without them being able to get parts?

    And what does that have to do with helping the owners of a Kinetico softener in this thread that aren't working?
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    I will kindly ask that you refrain from unfounded personal attacks. This request will not be repeated.
  9. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    View attachment 14908
    This is NOT a Kinetico water softener control valve Level 1. This must have been taken from another unit and adapted if used as a softener. So it looks like it had been previously taken apart and reassembled. I wonder what other parts are missing or out of place. I would say it is a filter unit and not a softener, therefor.....tah-da! No balls.

    Dittohead, thanks. One of the objectives in this fine forum is to help people and not try to win simply by shouting the loudest. At times I come across a topic with which I am not familiar, and I try to gain from others' experiences, such as yourself. Thanks. There are few things more ignorant that an educated person speaking on a topic about which he knows nothing. And, yes, a Kinetico softener will not only work upside down (although not recommended) but upside down AND under water--completely submerged. AND, you don't need to change the disc to adjust to varying number of users. I hope new members can weed out the facts from the fantasy and all the hidden agendum.

    Don't throw the wrench in the works simply because you can't work the wrench. ---grandpa

    Dano, if you need more specific data and parts, contact me via PM.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2012
  10. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    There should be a sticky at the top here called "Stuff Gary does not like" then he could post his opinions one time and not have to constantly remind us all of his prejudices. It would be a pretty long list though. Terry may not have enough band width to accommodate it. LOL

    We all know that to some degree Kinetco equipment is frustrating because it's very difficult to get parts or information on their stuff. That's because Kinetco decided NOT to swim around in the DIY pool. Like it or not, like their decision or not Kinetco makes some top shelf stuff that works as advertised. No, the average homeowner can not fiddle around with it and yes, it can be expensive to maintain but that in no way devalues the product. Constantly bashing them is childish and smacks of "sour grapes" BTW, the same can be said for Culligan equipment. The argument is silly. It would be like going around bashing Ferrari's because they are expensive, difficult to work on and the parts cost an arm and a leg.
  11. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

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    Andy, I went on a service call last year and the customer had what I referred to as a newer model Kinetico (the bolts holding the valve together were recessed into the level 1). That's when I found the dart looking seals which was on a softener. Is it possible Kinetico changed to the pins instead of the check balls? That's what I assumed when I saw them. I don't get a chance to work on Kineticos very often so that is why I said about the "darts".

    I'm still waiting for Gary to explain what adjustment would have to be made on a Kinetico when the amount of family members change. LOL
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  12. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

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    Sorry, I stand corrected. The check stems are in the newer MACH valves and various older models. These cannot be altered with check balls because the receptor ports are shaped different. I don't know when Kinetico made the switch but I can image out why. Thanks. I like these stems more because they stay in place better when working on the valve.

    Have you even taken apart the cap assembly with the pawls and discs?
  13. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

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    No. I only went into the body. I liked what I saw. Had to clean the venturi and drain flow control of debris (would not draw brine). Thanks for vast knowledge of the Kinetico valve and water treatment in general. It is always nice to have a proper debate with someone who will listen to others and "if" wrong, admit it. Thanks.
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    As a professional who enjoys learning about every aspect of this exciting and difficult field, I too am interested as to why the Kinetico is so different than every other twin alternating controller on the market, including the 9100, 9000, 9500, Clack Ws1EE w/ MAV, any system 7 configuration, etc. I program these twin alternating systems all the time and have never had to take into consideration the number of people in the household. What make the Kinetico so different?

    I have been reading through a lot of old posts on the Kinetic systems here, thanks for the excellent information you have shared. The valve has been evolving for years, and in my opinion, it is one of the best valves on the market. As I have said before, in the commercial field, the local Kinetico dealer gave us some serious competition.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Ferrari makes most every part of their cars with the possible exception of the battery and tires. Maybe light bulbs and mufflers. And they are extremely high quality and very fast while being very compact. Not an easy thing to combine. They also take very good care of their customers no matter where in the world they are.

    On the other hand, you can see the pictures in this thread, Kinetico only makes the blow molded plastic control valve, the rubber like gaskets, the plastic cross over pipes (2, usually not over 18"+/- long), the blow molded plastic tank adapter for the second tank and the plastic blow molded by pass valve.

    They do not make the remaining 95+/-% of the softener; including the plastic resin, the plastic resin tanks, the plastic distributor tubes, the plastic bottom basket or any plastic top basket or the plastic salt tank and it's plastic lid, plastic brine well, plastic and foam float, plastic brine pickup tube etc. etc.. All those parts are the identical parts all independent dealers and proprietary equipment dealers sell.

    And I'm not so sure they actually blow mold anything, they may have Clack or someone else do their plastic molding for all I know. Clack is huge in blow molding all kinds of things for many companies on an international basis.

    So I ask you readers of this forum that come here for information, what justifies such high pricing for a Kinetico softener? I say it's the millions they pay for advertising and higher profit for their money driven dealers.

    Also, corporate Kinetico will not do business with any end user customer, and that includes providing any service manual, parts breakdown or parts etc.. Everything must go through the one any only local dealer unless there isn't one, and then they may provide the name of another dealer in an adjoining territory, that may or may not help or want to service the equipment, or will charge a lot more due to the distance.

    Kinetico softeners set the gallons/frequency of regeneration with a disc. Last I knew there are 6 discs. In another thread in this forum recently there was a guy that had bought a house with a Kinetico softener in it and the seller wanted $1000 to leave the softener there. The buyer wanted advice as to what to do about buying the softener. The seller had a family of 8 living there and Andy, our resident Kinetico salesman (although just the other day he denied being Andy or a Kinetico salesman), asked the guy what number disc was in the control valve.

    I said the disc would probably have to be changed (adding to the $1000) because of the fewer number of people in the buyer's family and there probably would be a service call charge and a price for the disc. Andy et al say the number of people have nothing to do with a Kinetico softener...

    Of course Andy et al are saying I'm wrong etc. but, if the disc isn't changed, that means the softener will be regenerating twice as frequently for the new family of 4 than it was for the old family of 8.

    Andy et al must think picking at me is more important than giving honest advice here. I.E. he has made a comment that resin can not get into the Kinetico control valve even if the tank is turned upside down. I've asked him what prevents resin from going into the control valve inlet to the resin tank if upended and he won't answer that. Resin is very teeny tiny beads usually smaller than 1/16th inch in diameter.

    Also, I, many other dealers and dittohead! say that there is no advantage for most homeowners by having a twin tank type softener, evewn with soft water regeneration or upflow counter-current brining....

    Kinetico and their dealers and their sales force say everyone should have a twin tank Kinetico and run down all other types of softeners except when a prospective customer refuses to pay their high prices for one. Then many Kinetico dealers sell the same thing as independent dealers do.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Based on your extensive experience with all control valves, what IYO are the not so good control valves still on the market today?
  17. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

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    Making statements like this show your lack of knowledge of the Kinetico unit. It does not matter if 1 person or 10 people are in the family, the disc would be the same. And there are more discs than just 6. There are 8 unless Kinetico has increased the number since 1992 which I doubt. So instead of berating someone when you have little knowledge of the product they prefer, why don't you just sit back, listen and stop giving advise you are wrong about.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  18. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    What What What.........

    Attached Files:

  19. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    A twin tank shoud never be used residentially??? Funny, I sell hundred a year for that application. I suppose they should not be used commercially either. Wow, the lack of real world applications and installations experience shines through sometimes. I guess the Kinetico should be fixed with Duct tape as well.

    Riddle me this, size a softener for this application. I will give you the answer to make it simple. A Kinetico or 9100SXT would be the right answer but...

    Real world application, not all that uncommon. Norco California, 80 Grains hardness, family of 8, regular size 2 bathroom house with 1" main line.

    Reminder, a single tank system needs to maintain efficiency, so it should not regenerate any more often than every 5-8 days.

    A little cheat that can be used, though its effectiveness is still up in the air, a variable brining system can also be used but these typically will regenerate with a little extra salt every time, and they will do a double salt regeneration every tenth regeneration. Efficiencies are no where near where they could be yet.
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes I was wrong about there being 6 discs, there are 8.

    I am right that the disc sets the number of gallons between regenerations. And the compensated hardness is used to determine what disc is used. If that changes more than 2-3 gpg, because of the hardness or iron changing, you need a different disc or you are going to get hardness through the softener. Kinetico used to have a float system in the salt tank that tabs or pieces were broken off to set the number of lbs of salt used, and if you needed to change the salt does you may need a new one.

    The formatting doesn't read well but I can't get it any better.

    Disc Selection
    (Compensated Hardness*)

    Setting Capacity Efficiency Dosing Meter Disc# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
    ** 2.7 pounds 12481 gr. 4622 gr./lb. 3.9 lbs./ft³ 3 6 9 11 14 17 19 22
    4.0 pounds 15813 gr. 3953 gr./lb. 5.7 lbs./ft³ 4 7 11 15 18 21 25 28
    4.4 pounds 16630 gr. 3780 gr./lb. 6.3 lbs./ft³ 4 8 12 16 19 23 26 30

    Gallons/Regeneration: 3171 1586 1057 793 634 529 453 396

    **Settings certified by NSF and or WQA *Compensated hardness in gpg = Hardness + (3 x Fe in mg/l)
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