Hydrocare HC38 Thoughts???

[Cass]

Since it does not remove anything Does it affect sudzing while taking a shower like hard water does....or does it allow greater sudzing like soft water...

 

[Terrydbhm]

Since it does not remove anything Does it affect sudzing while taking a shower like hard water does....or does it allow greater sudzing like soft water...

I installed a Hydrocare unit in my home on July 15th and the following are my personal observations about changes in our hard water:

My wife claims that she uses less hair shampoo and her skin isn't as dry feeling after showering as before we installed our unit. I have been able to discontinue using hair conditioner as my hair after shampooing seems to be softer. The lime build up in our shower head has completely disappeared in the last 90 days since we installed Hydrocare. We are also no longer getting the lime scale spotting on our shower glass and the need to use a powerful lime scale removal product like Kaboom on a weekly basis.

I also have discontinued using Jet Dry in our dishwasher as we no longer get the hard water spots on dishes and glasses. We have in our kitchen dark granite counter tops with antique bronze fixtures which always had a white ring around the base of of the faucet. This ring has not come back in the 3 months we have used Hydrocare.

When I wash my dark colored car in the sun any water spots when drying the car wipe off with a towel. In the past I had to pull the car into the garage to dry it on a hot sunny day.

Our house is 5 years old and we had no previous water softener. I did consider a brine water softener which we had in our previous home but my wife hated the slimy feel of the soft water on her skin, so that was not an option for our current home.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Sjsmithjr]

Peter, the only US scientific testing done on the technology was with Onspex Labs in Cleveland last year. This test was commissioned independently by RS Jackson Resources using Rheem tankless water heaters as the test subject. Their conclusions overwhelmingly confirmed that the Hydropath technology prevented lime scale build up in the heat exchanger vs no treatment at all.

With all due respect, the referenced evaluation performed by OnSpex does not prove or disprove the effectiveness of the product in question as it is quite a flawed attempt at science.

I also visited the Hydropath UK website and while I found abundant anecdotal evidence in the form of personal testimony regrading the product in question, the "independent study" cited was the same as the one referenced above.

Please note that I am not saying that the product in question does or does not work as stated in the advertising literature, but rather that you haven't made your case.

 

[NHmaster]

Well look now. I have seen many of these type of conditioners come and go from the market over the years and the one thing they all have in common is a total lack of verifiable testing or published results from standard water quality testing that can be done by any competent water test lab. I read a lot of testimonials and folks that say the water "feels better" or they are using less soap and such but lets face it, those are subjective assessments at best and there is no empirical data to back up any of those claims. Now you can argue the point or you can simply subject the equipment to simple water tests and put the subject to rest. So when someone says to me that no the equipment does not soften the water or remove calcium or magnesium but it does de-lime the pipe, what does that mean? and for that matter who cares. Liming is rarely a problem in copper, pex or cpvc piping systems.

 

[Terrydbhm]

Well look now. I have seen many of these type of conditioners come and go from the market over the years and the one thing they all have in common is a total lack of verifiable testing or published results from standard water quality testing that can be done by any competent water test lab. I read a lot of testimonials and folks that say the water "feels better" or they are using less soap and such but lets face it, those are subjective assessments at best and there is no empirical data to back up any of those claims. Now you can argue the point or you can simply subject the equipment to simple water tests and put the subject to rest. So when someone says to me that no the equipment does not soften the water or remove calcium or magnesium but it does de-lime the pipe, what does that mean? and for that matter who cares. Liming is rarely a problem in copper, pex or cpvc piping systems.

Peter, I thought you would be a little more subjective. Contrary to what you think, lime scale build up is a huge problem for most homeowners and goes beyond just build up in pipes. Why do homeowners install water softeners? Is is so they can use less soap and have that slimy feel on their skin while showering or is to stop lime scale and water spotting and the damage it does to their water appliances?

Most water heater warranties are invalidated if lime scale build up causes the failure. Both Rheem and Rinnai tankless water heaters have lime scale build up exclusions in their warranties. For anyone who has hard water spots (lime scale) in their stainless dishwashers, dishes, glassware, showers doors, water faucets and shower heads, lime scale in a huge problem. The Onspex study on the use of Hydropath for preventing lime scale in Rheem tankless water heaters proved that the technology worked as claimed by the manufacture. Some on this forum, say that this testing was flawed, but do not say how or point out any truth behind their statements. The fact that British gas has tested the product and endorses it for all heater and boiler installations in the UK, I think also validates the technology.

If this technology is a fraud as you claim why then have water quality and other trade associations like the WQA refused to do scientific testing that could be accepted by most and put this issue to rest? I think the WQA is afraid of the results they would produce and the business detriment it would cause to their traditional water treatment dealers and distributors members, but again this is only my opinion.
The salt brine water softener is a dinosaur that pollutes the environment and is just a few votes and signatures away from being restricted or banned in many states and municipalities and the water treatment dealers in this country need to wake up and find alternatives to this old technology.

 

[Sjsmithjr]

The Onspex study on the use of Hydropath for preventing lime scale in Rheem tankless water heaters proved that the technology worked as claimed by the manufacture. Some on this forum, say that this testing was flawed, but do not say how or point out any truth behind their statements.

I'll be more than happy to provide the forum with a brief review regarding the short comings of the OnSpex evaluation. Just so that there is no confusion, can you provide a link to the version of the evaluation you would like for me to work from? For example: if I link to the evaluation from Hydropath Canada the evaluation is not the same as the evaluation linked to from the Hydropath UK site.

 

[Terrydbhm]

I'll be more than happy to provide the forum with a brief review regarding the short comings of the OnSpex evaluation. Just so that there is no confusion, can you provide a link to the version of the evaluation you would like for me to work from? For example: if I link to the evaluation from Hydropath Canada the evaluation is not the same as the evaluation linked to from the Hydropath UK site.

I have been in communication with Mr Jackson who commissioned and paid for the OxspeX study and he informed me that the copy on the Hydropath Canada web site is the actual report as put out by Onspex.

 

[Gary Slusser]

I've seen a couple anti-scale/descaling devices leave a whitish powdery substance on surfaces where the water was allowed to dry. The ladies hated that but to me it said they did as claimed.

But most do not work.

Neither do the mineral based "no salt" softeners, I know because I bought one to test to see if I wanted to sell them; it makes my Irish Spring suds better somewhat and doesn't allow as much white water marks but the water is nowhere like softened water.

And what some people call a slimy feel of softened water, that is moisturizing the skin and cuts down on skin creams and dry itchy flaky skin etc..

 

[NHmaster]

I am pretty sure this is a debate that can never be won by either side. Those convinced that they work are not going to change their minds no matter what evidence is presented to them and those that say they don't work will no doubt say the same, though on them they don't work side all we are looking for is real, hard test results that never seem to be provided by any of the companies manufacturing these things.

 

[NHmaster]

Like a car accident it's hard to keep away form some subjects and this is one of those.

Most ionic motion in water is due to random thermal motions; in an electric field of 1 volt/cm, only 1 out of about 100,000 jumps will be non-random.
Oppositely-charged ions tend to form neutral ion-pairs anyway, but they are so loosely-bound that they are continually dissociating and re-reforming, and are not believed able to grow large enough to serve as precipitation nuclei.
Some devices claim that they act on "calcium bicarbonate". Although both kinds of ions can exist in solution, Ca(HCO3)2 itself has never been isolated.
A possible mechanism might involve the displacement of the electric double layer surrounding an ion (or a pair of ions) in such a way that makes the formation of a precipitation nucleus within the water more likely.
It all sounds so simple, Just stick in a couple of oppositely-charged electrodes, and watch the harness ions such as Ca2+ and CO32– be magically drawn out of the water to be precipitated on the electrodes. Never mind such ions cannot be deposited from aqueous solution, or that the process would violate several laws of physics. once again, these products and othres like them have been around for years, and not one of them has ever provided creditable evidence to support the claims made. On the other hand, traditional treatment equipment has been around for a long tome with proveable results. The standard statement is that the new miracle equipment does not remove hardness like a traditional softner would. Instead it precipitates the minerals as a "fine dust" never mind that that fine dust is what occurs when hard water evaporates and leaves those minerals behind. As for the slimy feeling from softened water, I find that once the homeowner gets used to not using nearly as much soap the slimy feeling goes away.

 

[Gary Slusser]

That brings to mind the fact the up until the 1980s science thought there was no life on the ocean floor, and although there was evidence of long runout landslides, science couldn't come up with how a landslide could run so far so they denied the existence, and evidence. And science couldn't explain evidence of 1000+ ft high tsunamies so they denied the evidence. Or that science said stomach ulcers were caused by worry/stress until bacteria was proven to be the cause.

Physical water treatment (PWT), including magnets, does work in constantly circulating closed loop systems but not so well in residential applications where 99% of the time the water is stagnant. "Works" is defined as preventing hard water scale build up in pipe, fixtures, water heaters and water using appliances.

The powdery film is not the same as hard water spot rings that are very difficult to remove. The powder wipes right off like dust. Much like sulfates or chlorides does.

 

[NHmaster]

Well, yes, there are new scientific discoveries made all the time, but chemistry and more to the point the chemistry of water is pretty well defined at this point.

There is do date little or no evidence to support the claims of any of the magnetic, radio frequency or zeta rod type equipment and one thing that often gets overlooked is that at normal residential velocities within the piping, none of these units, would have any chance of changing the water chemistry given the amount of energy they produce, which is laws of physics thing.

The simple reality is that when these units are tested using hard water, there is virtually no change at all in the water chemistry. saying the water feels different, or produces a fine powder, what does that mean? Minerals are minerals. They are dissolved in solution. changing the chemistry involves removing them or chemically altering them and again, none of those methods do that. Magnets, electricity and radio waves will not change the chemical properties of minerals. It violated the law of physics.

 

[Terrydbhm]

Physical water treatment (PWT), including magnets, does work in constantly circulating closed loop systems but not so well in residential applications where 99% of the time the water is stagnant. "Works" is defined as preventing hard water scale build up in pipe, fixtures, water heaters and water using appliances..

Gary, it appears that you are very knowledgeable about most PWT systems with the exception of the Hydropath technology. It is true that PWT systems that use a magnetic field or coiled wire wrapped around the water pipe are dependant water flow directly through the magnetic field and on the flow of the water. Stagnant or static water will lose the charge it received after passing through the magnetic field in a relative short time. These devises to work properly have to be installed in a residence at the point of entry to work for the entire house.

The Hydropath technology does not use a magnetic field. To effectively eliminate scale buildup HydroCare applies an electric field, which creates seed crystals of scale in the water. Scale then grows on these seed crystals instead of on the interior pipe walls, forming larger particles suspended in the water. These suspended scale particles will not settle onto pipes and appliances – instead, they will flow out of the plumbing system. The process naturally decreases the level of the lime scale in the water, which builds until the existing lime scale in the pipe system is dissolved and the pipes are completely clean. These suspended scale particles are the powder left after water evaporates that you refer to and clean off with a damp towel instead of the caustic chemicals needed to remove untreated hard water spots.

The HydroCare system induces an electric current (between 100 and 200 KHZ) up and down the water flow for of hundreds of yards without using electrodes. The signal travels along pipe-work and within the water. It does not require a flow of water to set up the electric field unlike other technologies and works in all temperature levels and flux. The efficient manner by which the electric field is directionally generated through the entire water system both upstream and downstream from the location of the Hydrocare unit.. In a residence the recommended location for installation in on the cold water inlet to the water heater as the signal strength will be stronger for the one water appliance most affected by lime scale build up.

 

[Terrydbhm]

Beginning of the end of salt water softeners in California

I just received this news story from WCP Online:

October 2009: Volume 51, Number 10

California Softener Ban Signed

Governor Arnold Schwarzeneggar has signed AB 1366, sponsored by Assemblymember Mike Feuer (D-Los Angeles). The legislation is designed to improve water quality by addressing the problem of excess salinity caused by residential water softeners.

It gives greater discretion to local water agencies where surface and groundwater supplies are particularly susceptible to salt contamination with additional authority to manage these salt discharges. The bill applies to the South Coast, Central Coast, San Joaquin Valley, Tulare Lake and the lower half of the Sacramento Valley hydrologic regions.

The Pacific Water Quality Association will address the implications of this development during it's Annual Convention, focusing on what it means for water industry professionals and their businesses.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Well, yes, there are new scientific discoveries made all the time, but chemistry and more to the point the chemistry of water is pretty well defined at this point.

Well alrighty then, we should know all there is to know about everything there is to know about water chemistry and physics. How is it then that "there are new discoveries made all the time" as you say (and I agree with)?

There is do date little or no evidence to support the claims of any of the magnetic, radio frequency or zeta rod type equipment and one thing that often gets overlooked is that at normal residential velocities within the piping, none of these units, would have any chance of changing the water chemistry given the amount of energy they produce, which is laws of physics thing.

And the same type comments were made by scientific types about the pictures and on site descriptions and reports of long runout landslides. They physically existed but the scientists couldn't reproduce them in the lab so they said impossible. And were wrong for over a 150 years.

The simple reality is that when these units are tested using hard water, there is virtually no change at all in the water chemistry. saying the water feels different, or produces a fine powder, what does that mean? Minerals are minerals. They are dissolved in solution. changing the chemistry involves removing them or chemically altering them and again, none of those methods do that. Magnets, electricity and radio waves will not change the chemical properties of minerals. It violated the law of physics.

So here we are applying a test for hardness that doesn't show any change in hardness content so we deny there could be any change in the water chemistry or quality while the visual evidence is pooh pooed as someone's overactive imagination. IMO that's very closed minded and nothing more than someone's uninformed opinion.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Gary, it appears that you are very knowledgeable about most PWT systems with the exception of the Hydropath technology.

I know of them and have stated my first hand experience with two instances where I saw a change in water quality with an electronic anti-scaling device. And you're right that I don't know the product you found'n so passionately fell in love with but....

It is not the endall I think you think it is and will not give satisfactory service to most people.

As to the new law in CA, it does not ban softeners. It gives local authorities the ability to pass laws to ban softeners.

Now Santa Clarita has been doing that for years and although at first the population went along thinking it was a good idea, most now are saying it was a mistake because there is no substitute for 0 gpg soft water from a water softener.

They learned that after trusting the politicians and marketing like yours and bought "no salt" softeners of all kinds and found that they don't work.

 

[Terrydbhm]

As to the new law in CA, it does not ban softeners. It gives local authorities the ability to pass laws to ban softeners. .

I am not totally convinced that banning them is the right thing to do, but the handwriting is on the wall. A much more controlling bill was passed by Ca last year that Governor Schwarzenegger vetoed. This years bill was a compromise that they knew Governor would sign. However he is not as popular as he once was and more than likely Schwarzenegger will not get re elected which means a much more liberal will be in charge and more likely go along with stronger statewide controls in the future. Similar bills are also being considered in as many as 11 other states and whether its right or wrong the salt brine water softener is a dinosaur that will eventually be legislated out of existence.

Now Santa Clarita has been doing that for years and although at first the population went along thinking it was a good idea, most now are saying it was a mistake because there is no substitute for 0 gpg soft water from a water softener. .

Since when does what the people want or like matter to politicians who are beholding to their agendas especially when it comes to environmental and health issues. Polls show that over 60% of the People in the US do not want the current health care reform but the politicians think they know best and are determined to cram it down our throats.

 

[NHmaster]

Look, i don't want to get into an argument with anyone here but for gods sake people, do me a favor and at least take a look at the following site.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

The guy has a ton of links to university studies and independent testing labs, pretty much you name it. And all of them dismiss these claims.

I can't help but feel bad for those that have bought into this bunk. You have been scammed by smooth talking salesmen with very convincing pseudo-science into believing that these products will do things that are for the most part contrary to the laws of physics and chemistry. But then, Roswell does a hell of a business and there are scores of folks still looking for big foot and the loch ness monster. Nobody likes to be wrong and nobody likes to feel like they were scammed. Worse yet, nobody likes to throw money away. Please, do yourself a favor and read through the above site. Follow the links and read them. The guy who's site it is, is a scientist, he has no stake in the subject either way and he openly links to many many other guys that have either tested or had experiences bood and bad with these sorts of products.

just exactly is a long run out landslide? I spose I could google it but my fingers are tired.

 

[Terry]

just exactly is a long run out landslide? I spose I could google it but my fingers are tired.

A massive landslide in Washington State has experts baffled.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010051939_landslide13m.html

The slide probably was a "rotational slump," University of Washington geologist David Montgomery said.A big hunk of the valley wall basically slid along a scoop-shaped fracture line. As the top of the slope slumped, the bottom was thrust upward.
Rotational slides can be triggered by rain — but it could be rain that fell a year ago or more. The water percolates deep into the ground, creating hidden weakness, Montgomery said.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/zoom/html/2010051941.html

 

[NHmaster]

well that's just plain bizarre