Hydrocare HC38 Thoughts???

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Terrydbhm

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The following claims are made for Hydrocare:

"HydroCare is a revolutionary breakthrough in the treatment of hard water. One patented unit transmits a unique radio frequency signal that effectively breaks up existing limescale that clogs in pipes, showers and appliances. It will prevent any future buildup protecting the entire plumbing system and increasing efficiency. The electric field is generated through the entire plumbing system and all water appliances.

A Green and Efficient Water Treatment Solution!
Costs a fraction of a water softener!
No Maintenance! No Bags of Salt!
No Filters!
Energy Savings – up to 30% increased efficiencies in heating water
Unclogs pipes and saves thousands of gallons of water
Extends the life of your entire plumbing system and appliances
Environmentally friendly and healthy!
Uses less than 2 watts!"

There are no claims that the unit softens the water--only that it "breaks up existing lime scale"...and "prevent any future build up".

Can we all agree that it is not a softener and should not be compared to a softener?.
Bob, I know that nowhere in this forum or any other have I claimed that Hydrocare was a water softener nor does the manufacturer make any such claims. I have also never claimed that the traditional salt brine water softener doesn't work for softening water as I will admit that most do work very well. Hydrocare offers an alternative to the water softener for removing and controlling lime scale build up. This product also is an alternative to the traditional water softener for those end users who who like myself do not like the slimy feel of soft water and have concerns for the environmental issues of dumping tons of salt brine down our sewer systems and eventually into our environment. Some posters in this forum have made claims that the perception that with a product like Hydrocare we have some increased sudsing with soap and decreased hard water spotting is purely anecdotal. Isn't the claim that the slimy feel of softened water, which supposedly is moisturizing the skin and cuts down on skin creams and dry itchy flaky skin etc.. just as anecdotal , or is there actual scientific proof that this is the case?

It does seem to me that the claims made should be supported with documentation--particularly claims like "30% increased efficiencies in heating water" and "saves thousands of gallons of water", and "extends the life of your entire plumbing system and appliances" .

The energy savings claim claim is based upon that if you remove the built up lime scale on a water heater's heat exchanger the unit will heat water more efficiently and thus use less energy and 30% in savings is not out of line. By the way the information for this claim was based upon findings from British Gas. Lime sale is also one of the main contributors to water heater failure so removing it will extend the life of an average water heater.

Saving thousands of gallons of water is also very true, the average salt brine water softener uses on average about 20,000 gallons of water to recharge itself per year. This water goes down the drain. Hydrocare does not recharge with water so it saves that 20,000 gallons a year.

I would also like to see documentation for the statement that it costs a fraction of a water softener. If it can be purchased for $600 I can point to a water softener that can be purchased for $450--and that "fraction" is 1 and 1/3 or 1.33 times MORE than a water softener.

I do not know about the market you are in, but in mine the 2 largest water treatment dealers who both sell nationally known whole house water systems, start their pricing in the $5000 range, and I have seen quotes as high as $10,000. These systems are granted high end but are basically a brine water softener and a R/O under sink drinking water system. They both use high handed and high pressure sales tactics to "scare" their customers into making their purchases. I have heard reports that their sales people tell potential customers that our city water has deadly bacteria and that they are slowly poisoning their family with city tap water. In an earlier post I made reference this this. I have seen the big box home improvement stores sell water softeners in the $500 to $700 range but these prices do not include installation which will run into several hundred dollars more. Does the $450 for a water softener you can point to include installation.
 

Terrydbhm

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Terrydbhm, If PWT or 'no salt' softeners worked, it wouldn't matter what type it was, I and everyone else selling ion exchange softeners, and most selling water treatment chemicals, would be selling the stuff.

Frankly most of us are as honest as the day is long but you guys act as if we are all liars and crooks etc. raping the environment.

Gary, I have never called you a crook and from what information I have found out about you, you are one of the good guys and someone I would most likely trust if I wanted to buy a water softener. But you know there are a lot of bad apples out there selling the same products that you are.

I also know of and have talked to several water treatment companies who are selling Hydrocare along with thier traditional ion exchange products. One of these in Florida told me he has had great success with Hydrocare and sees this product as the future in hard water treatment and wanted to be on the ground floor. He sees down the road that salt brine discharges are going to be legislatively banned and that more and more alternatives are going to be developed in this industry and wants to be the first not last one in his market offering these products.
 

Terrydbhm

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To the best of my knowledge: the FDA does not certify technology; the API, on the consumer level, certifies the ratings of motor oil; the WCP is the international equivalent of the WQA; the WQA has declined to certify the Hydrocare HC38 (the presumption among some being that they are biased towards innovative technologies); and the NSF at this time has a copy of the OnSpeX report but has taken no action.
.

Again you didn't answer my question. We all know that the WQA and NSF have not certified the Hydropath technology as of today. But today is and tomorrow could be and it that day were to happen would you accept their findings and certification?
 

Sjsmithjr

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Again you didn't answer my question. We all know that the WQA and NSF have not certified the Hydropath technology as of today. But today is and tomorrow could be and it that day were to happen would you accept their findings and certification?

I'm not going to waste any more of my time with salesmen who insult me, without deference to forum rules, by making false accusations, calling me narrow minded, and accusing me of having a hidden agenda.
 
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Gary Slusser

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Gary, I have never called you a crook and from what information I have found out about you, you are one of the good guys and someone I would most likely trust if I wanted to buy a water softener. But you know there are a lot of bad apples out there selling the same products that you are.
I didn't say you did, I said the guys selling PWT do; but thanks.

You are repeating bad info though. You say 20,000 gallons of water per year is used by softeners to regenerate. That is 55 gals/day and totally wrong by more than at least 95%. The average water use is 30-50 gals per WEEK.

The average salt used per week is from 6-12 lbs. And it is not the cause of the high chlorides problem California thinks it is. And now a few other states are picking up on it because they too are against ion exchange softening based on fake environmental "concerns"; just like global warming.

As to the slippery feeling. Very very few people feel that way while the vast majority of people with softened water love the feel, and understand it is doing their bods and hair good. BTW, it takes 21 days to make or break a good or bad habit. Also, once a person has a softener and they use hard water, they REALLY HATE IT, much more so than the slippery feeling which disappears as soon as you dry yourself by patting yourself with a towel.

My thinking is that many people that are so against PWT becasue there is no certification, they won't be changing their thinking much if it were to be certified. And the PWT guys are mostly the cause of that IMO because they compare the product to water softeners, which really, there is no comparison because PWT is an anti-scale device, and not able to soften water, which creates that "feeling" you guys gone on about but people actually enjoy.
 

Terrydbhm

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I don't waste my time with salesmen who insult me, in difference to forum rules, by making false accusations, calling me narrow minded, and accusing me of having a hidden agenda.

Your reference to me as a mere "salesman" I find demeaning and meant to be an insult. I own my own very successful water treatment business and yes I also do some of my sales and marketing. My company has a spotless record with the local BBB and a reputation for delivering as promised and standing behind every product we sell.

I asked a very simple question that so far you refuse to answer about what you would accept for testing or certification of a new technology. So far your answers to this question have been accusations that I am attacking you for not accepting your critical attacks against a product I firmly believe in and sell with a 100% satisfaction. Have you been a politician at some time?:confused: IMO I still believe you have a hidden agenda here.
 

Sjsmithjr

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Anecdotal?? It is total relevant to this discussion as to whether the product works as intended and marketed. British Gas was instrumental in the development and TESTING of the Hydropath technology 14 years ago and concluded from their testing that it did work and have been endorsing it ever since and have thousands of very satisfied customers in the UK. Your amusing story about back braces is what has no relevance to this discussion.

Your comments have finally tipped your hand to your true agenda, you are not interested in any testing by anyone or group that proves that this technology works. In your closed mind you will never accept this product no matter who tests or endorses its merits. My guess is you are a plant sent to this discussion by some traditional water softener trade group to debunk this technology no matter what. I would bet money that if in the future if some group like the WQA, NSF, WCP, FDA, API etc. were to test the product and certify the technology you will still be screaming SCAM!!:p

Please point out the question in your earlier post.

As to whether or not I've ever been a politician, the answer is no. I have been, in adult life, a laborer, a plumbers helper, a bartender, a gas jockey, a counterman at an auto parts store, a roadie, a civil engineering field technician, and a geologist.

I do, however, see a few unfounded and inappropriate allegations. For example; when I ever referred to your product as "scam"?
 
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Terrydbhm

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Please point out the question in your earlier post.

As to whether or not I've ever been a politician, the answer is no. I have been, in adult life, a laborer, a plumbers helper, a bartender, a gas jockey, a counterman at an auto parts store, a roadie, a civil engineering field technician, and a geologist.

I do, however, see a few unfounded and inappropriate allegations. For example; when I ever referred to your product as "scam"?

I do apologize in the original post I didn't exactly put this in a questions format but in post 103 I did. And after going back through your posting I was wrong to accuse you of using the word scam, I was confusing your posting with several by Peter Griffin:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I can't help but feel bad for those that have bought into this bunk. You have been scammed by smooth talking salesmen with very convincing pseudo-science into believing that these products will do things that are for the most part contrary to the laws of physics and chemistry. Worse yet, nobody likes to throw money away. ..
 

Terrydbhm

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Mr Smith as a geologist would you be interested in a copy of a case study that was prepared and presented to the Society of Petroleum Engineers annual meeting in Aberdeen Scotland in May 2008 that detailed a very complete study of the use of the Hydropath technology in preventing scale in oil well drilling?
 

NHmaster

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Mr Smith as a geologist would you be interested in a copy of a case study that was prepared and presented to the Society of Petroleum Engineers annual meeting in Aberdeen Scotland in May 2008 that detailed a very complete study of the use of the Hydropath technology in preventing scale in oil well drilling?

I have read that paper, again ZERO scientific evidence to start with, and yet another testimonial. To quote a very old commercial "where's the beef"? I will bet you that in 100% of these "industrial" applications the person doing the reporting had no scientific evidence or background from which to base their assumptions coupled with results that are most often a result of a lowering of the waters PH due to high consumption. Why don't you find some real, verifiable evidence. Testing done by ANY agency along with the results and then print publish them here. No more bogus case studies and glowing customer testimonials, we want REAL proof. An NO you don't have to compare it to a traditional softener, just publish some real results. White powdery residue is not a real result, and I'll tell you why. So what, you get white powder, is white powder a good thing? Is that what you want coming out of your faucets?
 

Terrydbhm

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I have read that paper, again ZERO scientific evidence to start with, and yet another testimonial. To quote a very old commercial "where's the beef"? I will bet you that in 100% of these "industrial" applications the person doing the reporting had no scientific evidence or background from which to base their assumptions coupled with results that are most often a result of a lowering of the waters PH due to high consumption. Why don't you find some real, verifiable evidence. Testing done by ANY agency along with the results and then print publish them here. No more bogus case studies and glowing customer testimonials, we want REAL proof. An NO you don't have to compare it to a traditional softener, just publish some real results. White powdery residue is not a real result, and I'll tell you why. So what, you get white powder, is white powder a good thing? Is that what you want coming out of your faucets?

Mr Griifin, I did NOT ASK you if you wanted a copy of the SPE paper as I doubt as a Plumbing Inspector you are qualified to make any comments on scientific merits of the study. I asked sjsmithjr if he wanted a copy because as a Geologist he may be qualified to discuss the merits of the study more than others in this forum.

I also assume that from your comments if an organization or agency like the WQA, CWQA or the NSF was to test Hydrocare and certify the technology you would accept the findings? Would you accept any certification from these agencies? That may not happen today but who knows about down the road.

The white powdery residue are the Ca and Mg ions clusters that are left when the water containing them evaporates. This powder wipes of with a damp cloth not with caustic lime scale chemicals like Lime Away, CLR or Kaboom which is needed to remove lime scale from untreated water. By the way this residue is very minimal compared to the cement like hard water stains from untreated hard water. I would rather have a little powdery residue than lime scale build up in my water heater and plumbing system and shower glass surfaces.
 

Terrydbhm

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No--it is an internet provider delivered price for a 1 cubic foot unit with a Fleck 5600 demand valve.

How many first time buyers of a water soft water system are going to buy it over the Internet and then have to find someone to do the installation? In my market anyone wanting to buy and install locally is going to get hit for $5000 minimum for a whole house system. I have in the past directed many people who have called me about salt brine water softeners to the big box retailers but they usually are worried about whether these retailers have the staff to help them make the correct buying choice for their application.
 

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Another testimonial?

I know that some in this forum do not want to hear testimonials about how Hydrocare has worked in any application with out a scientific study to verify that the results are scientifically accurate. Not all things observed can be explained with pure science.

I just talked with a customer of mine who has been using a Hydrocare system in a commercial application. He runs a commercial organic green house that produces mini greens and uses a very fine water misting system to irrigate which comes on for 6 seconds every 10 minutes. He is on city tap water that is around 22-25 gpg of hardness. Prior to Hydrocare he had to take off the misting heads every 3-4 weeks to clean them in an acid solution as they clogged up with the lime scale. His options for treating the water were very limited as a brine water softener could not be used due to the salt content of the treated water for irrigating. One of my competitors tried to sell him an R/O system but he was concerned about the 15,000 gallons or more of water he would be wasting every month per each green house. After almost 8 weeks now with a Hydrocare unit installed he reports that his misting heads have no lime scale build up and he is ecstatic about the results. We will be installing more units now on his other green house locations. Is this scientific proof that the Hydrocare unit works? Maybe not, but the only variable that has changed is the Hydrocare unit and so far there has been no lime scale build up in his misting heads. If someone else can explain this please take a shot.
 

Gary Slusser

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How many first time buyers of a water soft water system are going to buy it over the Internet and then have to find someone to do the installation?

In my market anyone wanting to buy and install locally is going to get hit for $5000 minimum for a whole house system.

I have in the past directed many people who have called me about salt brine water softeners to the big box retailers but they usually are worried about whether these retailers have the staff to help them make the correct buying choice for their application.
I have been doing internet sales since mid 2002 but really started in Jan of 2004. I have done a 1/4 million a year as one guy talking to 99.9% of all the people that buy from me, and that is at internet pricing.

Research shows that 75%+ of people wanting to buy a 'major' purchase do research online before the purchase. There are many that buy a softener online and install it themselves or hire a plumber or handyman to do it. Installing a softener is quite easy for anyone to learn how to do it. About 80% of my customers are DIYers.

BTW, they would never buy locally, because many of them have and don't like the prices and service from the local dealers.

Big box store brands are low quality and the most complained about equipment sold. The warranties are short (90 days to 3 years) and the materials used in the control valve (ABS plastic) are very low quality. All big box brands are made by one company (Ecowater) and the parts are interchangeable; Kenmore, Whirlpool, GE, North Star, mortonsalt.com.

So I'd appreciate it if you sent those people wanting a water softener to me instead of the big box stores. I sell real equipment for the same everyday price; with full, non prorated, 5 an 10 year warranties. And if you did enough of it I'd make it worth your time.
 

Gary Slusser

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I know that some in this forum do not want to hear testimonials about how Hydrocare has worked in any application with out a scientific study to verify that the results are scientifically accurate. Not all things observed can be explained with pure science.

I just talked with a customer of mine who has been using a Hydrocare system in a commercial application. He runs a commercial organic green house that produces mini greens and uses a very fine water misting system to irrigate which comes on for 6 seconds every 10 minutes. He is on city tap water that is around 22-25 gpg of hardness. Prior to Hydrocare he had to take off the misting heads every 3-4 weeks to clean them in an acid solution as they clogged up with the lime scale. His options for treating the water were very limited as a brine water softener could not be used due to the salt content of the treated water for irrigating. One of my competitors tried to sell him an R/O system but he was concerned about the 15,000 gallons or more of water he would be wasting every month per each green house. After almost 8 weeks now with a Hydrocare unit installed he reports that his misting heads have no lime scale build up and he is ecstatic about the results. We will be installing more units now on his other green house locations. Is this scientific proof that the Hydrocare unit works? Maybe not, but the only variable that has changed is the Hydrocare unit and so far there has been no lime scale build up in his misting heads. If someone else can explain this please take a shot.
It's true there is no science based test(s) to prove the visual results but the same was true of long runout landslides, 1000' and higher tsunamis and such for over a hundred years. I don't consider the guy would lie and if I saw his spray heads before and after, I'd say it worked too.

And IMO that type application is the market for PWT, not so much in residential.
 

Terrydbhm

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I have been doing internet sales since mid 2002 but really started in Jan of 2004. I have done a 1/4 million a year as one guy talking to 99.9% of all the people that buy from me, and that is at internet pricing.

Research shows that 75%+ of people wanting to buy a 'major' purchase do research online before the purchase. There are many that buy a softener online and install it themselves or hire a plumber or handyman to do it. Installing a softener is quite easy for anyone to learn how to do it. About 80% of my customers are DIYers.

So I'd appreciate it if you sent those people wanting a water softener to me instead of the big box stores. I sell real equipment for the same everyday price; with full, non prorated, 5 an 10 year warranties. And if you did enough of it I'd make it worth your time.

I would not have thought that that many people would buy a water softener over the Internet. The local dealers here have such bad reputations and terribly service along with outrageous pricing. Several of my commercial customers have asked why I haven't gotten into the business. I tell them I hate working nights and weekends but the real reasons are much different. In my state you have to be a licensed plumber by the state to install a water softener, something I have no desire to do. Also a permit is required to install any unit and in this state you have to have a business license in every city and county you install the unit, not just where your home office location is located. Also sales tax has to be paid to each taxing authority which means you write a check to the state , the county and the city the unit is located.
I do not have to install the Hydrocare units, no plumber required and the customer can pick it up at my office so I only have a business license at my office location and just write sales tax checks to my city and county. I know that I will not sell a Hydrocare to every potential hard water customer and I do like the idea of referring those people wanting traditional water softeners to you, specially since 2 of the local water softener dealers are also my main competitors in my POU commercial drinking water cooler business. I love every opportunity of taking residential business away from them which is why in the past I referred people to the big box retailers.
 

Sjsmithjr

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@ terrydbhm

If you are referring to a paper entitled Two Year Results of a Breakthrough Physical Water Treating System for Control of Scale in Oilfield Applications that was presented as a poster session at the SPE Ninth International Conference on Oilfield Scale in Aberdeen, UK, May 28-29, 2008, then I have read it.

Let's all keep in mind that while the SPE did not formally review the contents of the paper and that the material contained does not neccessarly reflect any position of the SPE, the SPE does require that any data presented in the paper be technically correct.

It's a good paper. If I were given to hyperbole I would say that is the anthesis of the OnSpeX evaluation that seems to be the source of our disagreement. Note that I said the OnSpex evaluation; neither now or in the past have I denied the feasibility of physical water treatment technology (PWT).

Not all things observed can be explained with pure science.

True. But in this case, both the operating principles and effects can be. May I suggest some reading material for you? You may find it beneficial should you ever find yourself in a position to make the pitch for the better testing to quanitatively demonstrate the effectiveness of this particular varient of PWT in a residential environment.
 
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