How low should I go? (buried water lines)

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rjblumii

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I'm going to be trenching some water lines inside a pole shed-barn for stall waterers, a sink, outside hose bibs, etc. We're in WI and the building is not insulated. I've been told I need to be down about 5 feet (not fun in rocky terrain). Are there measures I can take...like insulation for the lines, etc that would allow me to not have to be quite so deep with the lines?

Thanks!

Bob
 

Gary Slusser

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An age old question. Imagine doing it at 3' and next Feb you have a frozen line that breaks and no water until you dig up enough to find the freeze up, then dig enough to repair the line that's split say 2' long. That might take a 6' to 12' trench. Then you trun on the water to find another leak like 15' away... Will you have saved enough now to make all that worthwhile?

Finding where a water line is frozen can be a bear, especially when the line is buried! They don't leak and show themselves until the ground thaws; that mught not be until May... I wouldn't think I saved anything if it were me. Basically it comes down to doing something right the first time; which always saves time, effort, aggravation and expense. So my vote is for everything to be 5'3" minimum. ;)
 

Verdeboy

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Pipe Insulation

There's all kinds of pre-insulated pipe systems out there, as well as insulation you can add yourself, that can reduce the depth of the trench.

Just do some Googling on the subject.
 

Terry

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The only way insulation could help, would be as a blanket between the cold and the pipe. I don't like to use pipe insulation for freezing. I do it to help the hot lines stay hot a little longer, and on the cold lines to prevent sweating. But for freezing? I don't think it helps for that.

I have repaired insulated pipes, many times. Unless there is a heat source heating the pipe, then I don't know what the insulation would do. Since there is no heat source, it eventually drops in temperature and freezes.

A good back hoe should dig it pretty well. You wouldn't find me hand digging a five foot ditch.
 

Jadnashua

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Properly placed insulation (sheeting) can raise the frost line, but you'd still end up digging a really big hole...easier to dig it deeper rather than the width you'd need to make it work. The idea is to trap ground heat, not stop cold, and you need to trap a fair amount...not worth it in most cases except in some special situations, and I don't think this is one. Plus, you may not get the inspector to sign off on it without an engineering study, and for that cost, you'd hire a ditch done 4-5 times.
 

Geniescience

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winter 1993 i lived through 30 consecutive days at 25 below zero. I saw pipes freezing during the week after the AIR temperature had risen to more reasonable winter temperatures.

Explaining that might help understand what is at stake here. Heat and cold are the same thing, each one expressed as the negative number of the other. A huge mass of frozen ground is easier to think about if you imagine it is a huge mass of boiling hot lava. Its heat (or the negative number equivalent) will radiate heat (or opposite equivalent) to the other objects and to the ground surrounding it. Even after air temperatures change (lower or higher), the mass has its own energy; it has thermal inertia, and nothing can stop inertia.

In this case the twenty-below temperature mass had become big and substantial enough to suck the remaining heat energy out of the water in the buried pipes and cause them to freeze long after air temperatures had come back up to about the freezing point. We know that ground water feels cold to us, but it does still have heat energy in it; we only consider it to be cold relative to another benchmark comparison point. It has heat energy in it that its temperature indicates. When below-freezing cold "energy" (or anti-energy?) penetrates down to the level of the buried pipes, the temperature difference between that mass of "cold" and the water in the pipes becomes so high that the water loses its heat energy below freezing point and it freezes. This explains why it is good to run the water in the taps as then that about-to-freeze water gets pulled out and new water slightly warmer comes through the pipe up to the place where cold mass is pulling heat energy out of the water. The longer it sits there the more heat it loses, so instead of leaving it there to freeze you remove it and let warmer water take its place. Calling it "warmer" doesn't mean it feels warm to you, but it is indeed warmer than the water that was just about to freeze.

Insulating a pipe enables that water to keep its heat energy longer and not transfer it to a surrounding mass that absorbs it. It won't freeze as early, as soon. That can make all the difference; it can be significant. Throughout the entire universe, that function is all insulation can do: slow down heat and cold transfer. In day to day life, in buildings, in clothing, in winter sleeping bags, wherever, we use insulation to slow down transfer too, that is, to slow down the transfer of heat energy to colder mass. We often say "prevent heat loss" but we don't mean it as "stop entirely", so ultimately the word "prevent" is inaccurate when used as "prevent cold from penetrating" and other similar expressions. Insulation doesn't prevent heat transfer from occurring; it slows the process. That's the law. Like the law of gravity, it just is. The Law of Retarding an Unstoppable Process.

Insulation may also prevent damp or wet earth from coming into contact with the pipe; that can also add a lot of insulating properties all by itself. Anything that lets ground water drain away from the pipe surroundings is a very good thing, since water is a conductor of heat and cold, not an insulator like trapped air. Dry sand is a far better insulator than damp sand, which conducts / transfers heat/cold. Any continuous layer of any non-heat-conducting material can act as an insulator, no matter whether the material is sold as an insulator or not. Example: PVC pipe as a sheathing can insulate the water bearing pipe; on the understanding that no water collect / remain stagnant in the PVC pipe.

If you have to run the water pipe under a driveway or a country road you need to go a lot deeper than otherwise since the ground is compacted there and not insulated by fluffy snow in winter.

Summary: Insulation works. When it stays dry, it keeps working.

Recommendation: (1.) Closed cell foam would be my choice, any thickness, laid on top of (2.) a PVC sheathing around the water supply pipe, something like a French drain with holes in it, and (3.) dry sand and gravel, any kind that will stay dry and not get water logged, placed so as to stay dry and not get water logged.

david
 
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