drain ?'s - proper use combos, etc

[web_surfer]

After doing much reading on this board & others I have a gut feeling that some of the drain work done in my house is not correct. Bear in mind that the city plumbing inspector has been there twice & passed it as shown in pictures.

1st picture is in basement showing 90 bend with heel inlet - tub drain is going into heel inlet & PVC pipe going to right is new vent for tub. The vertical 3" PVC pipe comes down from the new 2nd floor bath. From what I have read the bend with heel inlet should not be used like this.

2nd picture is where new 2nd floor toilet comes through floor into soffit enclosure over 1st floor tub/shower. San tee on its back is strictly a vent for toilet. San tee also used for toilet instead of normal closet bend. 2" PVC that comes in from right is from tub & sink (which have their own vent). After doing some reading on Wisconsin plumbing codes this setup appears to be OK, but I am not a plumber so maybe I am misinterpreting the code. One of the plumbers on the board actually wrote an published article on this exact usage of the toilet/san tee setup.

Pictures 3 & 4 show a long radius tee (combo?) attached to sink drains. Again, from what I am reading this does not appear to be proper.

Permits were pulled by myself & city plumbing inspector has been here twice. My first inclination is if he passed it then just enclose it & forget it; however, I also do not want some home inspector or future city inspector saying it is wrong and needs to be fixed. Easier to deal with now.

Looking for input from board members as to their opinions on the DWV setups as shown in pictures. If in fact some of this is incorrect how do I correct it and let inspector know why. I have found that some inspectors do not like being challenged by a non-professional.

Thanks, Matt

 

[Terry]

There are so many things wrong with those pictures.

All trap arms run off of a vertical pipe need to be santees, not combos.

You can have a laundry sink below a kitchen sink without separately venting the lower sink, and then tying the vent in on the second floor six inches above the flood level of the kitchen sink.

They way it is now, whenever you pull the plug on the kitchen sink, it's going to "pull" the trap seal out of the laundry sink.

The way the toilet is plumbed is just bad.
A santee on it's back?
Not right.
And then you angle the down portion to land solids at the front of the santee, instead of bending them down the line with a combo.
However, there shouldn't be a combo or santee there.
The drain for the shower should have been pulled off before the vent for the toilet.
The toilet should be the end of the run, and be installed with a 90 that forces solids down the line, not up the line.

You have it draining backwards for that portion.

 

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[web_surfer]

Terry,

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, you confirmed my gut feelings.

I now wonder why the inspector passed these setups. He was here twice - once before everything was glued together. The city inspector is a Master Plumber and has been the inspector for years. Arrrrgh.

The laundry sink & heel inlet/tub setup I can change later, but the other two need to be changed before the walls are enclosed. Fixing the bath sink drain should not pose any real problems. However, the toilet setup is another story. The primary reason toilet is setup like that is due to limited space. Given the space there is no way a normal closet bend will fit & where do I tie in the 2" tub/shower & sink drain from the right"

As far as the basement heel inlet question - should the vent just be moved so that it is on the other side of the drain? Tub would connect where the black plug is.

Matt

 

[Terry]

If you are dropping the ceiling, then youl should have room for a second line over for the tub or shower.
I can't see more to the left of the photo, buy you may be able to bring a 2" line up there, or you could wye off as it goes through the stud, one side for the shower, one for the toilet, vent after the wye.
Is there a vent for the shower or tub there?

Maybe a Wisconsin plumber can weigh in on this too.
I'm West Coast UPC plumbing.
What code are you under there?

 

[web_surfer]

Picture is what is to left. That is the 3" PVC pipe that connects to bend w/ heel inlet in basement.

Only part of ceiling that is going to be dropped is the area directly over the tub.

 

[tilelayher]

Not trying to hijack this thread, but in reference to the toilet hackery in the second photo, How do you make that right if you want a 90 there instead of a combo tee or santee but you still want the cleanout just in case at the end of the run?

 

[Terry]

It looks like you have plenty of space below to add a wye

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I'm West Coast UPC plumbing.
What code are you under there?

Wisconsin has it's own plumbing code.

A heel inlet bend when the heel inlet is horizontal is strictly prohibited.

The kitchen over the laundry sink is ok as long as the drain stack is 2" above the laundry and 4" below. (or all of it is 3")

Disclaimer- I am not a plumber, but I am from WI.

 

[NHmaster]

Gotta side with Terry here.... It's time for the sawzall

 

[web_surfer]

The 3" PVC pipe is going to be in a finished wall. The clearance between horizontal drain pipe & soffit over tub is only ½" or so. Where is the wye to go? Any illustrations?

I am still in disbelief that the inspector passed me, not once but twice. Now what, I do what is supposed to be done (permitting, inspections, etc.) and still end up with a mess. Thank God I had a gut feeling something was wrong based on all the reading I have done (codes, forums, etc.). I would expect a journeyman plumber & master plumber city inspector to inform me of these issues. Like I said earlier the inspector actually approved this before it was glued up. Why did I bother to get a permit & have it inspected? Fortunately this is the last house I am going to buy that needs work, but if I did I am seriously going to question getting permits & inspections that everyone says should be done.

Ok, sorry about the rant.

Matt

 

[Terry]

Matt,
Even here in the Seattle area, there have been times and places that made you shake your head.
As plumbers, you get to know the inspectors pretty well, what they know, and what their pet peeves are.

Most of them, have been very knowledgeable.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

It looks like there is room to drain the tub/sink line down the back wall by itself if you can make the connection in the basement.

 

[web_surfer]

Thanks to all for the insight on my DWV problems.

The two sink drain combos & basement tub/vent/heel inlet problem I can handle based on my research and your guidance in this post.

My real question is the toilet santee fiasco. If I understand correctly it is recommended that the 2" PVC drain coming from right of picture should be disconnected & attached separately. Unfortunately getting it to the basement would not be possible. As stated earlier the 2" PVC is vented at the other end.
Instead can a 3" x 2" santee be installed in the vertical PVC pipe running from the fiasco toilet setup (shown in Post #7) and connect the 2" PVC there? It would be a pain, but doable.

If the 3"x2" santee connecting 2" tub/sink in vertical DWV is OK then 3" line will have to be cut so the toilet setup will be redone too. As stated previously space is limited so getting a normal closet bend & vent in is not possible. Without the vent a closet bend would fit.
Instead of having the vent between the toilet & vertical section (as told to do by inspector) can it be installed some other way?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Dlarrivee]

So wait a minute, you installed all of this personally?

 

[hj]

quote; The city inspector is a Master Plumber and has been the inspector for years. Arrrrgh.

Too much information here to read it all, but when I was an apprentice, I had the plumbing inspector for a neighboring city working for me. I had to fire him because of poor workmanship, and his NEW apprentice told me it didn't take much to get him started on "apprentices who think they know everything, and I have been a plumber for 25 years".

 

[web_surfer]

Most of it, yes. That is why got permit & had it inspected - to make sure it was OK. A lot of good that did. As stated earlier, it was cut & installed in place before glued up, then had inspector come in - he said OK, so I glued the stuff up. Then he came & gave final OK.

I even questioned directly the use of the bend w/ heel inlet & he said it is allowed despite my mentioning it was prohibited under Comm 82.30(9)(c)1. After this exchange I did not question anything else. Originally I had a bend with heel inlet where toilet santee is, but changed it based on just mentioned code & other research (see below paragraph). The inspector came after I did that change, but before changed the one in the basement. Said all was OK and made NO recommendations to change anything or mentioned any potential problems - as a result left toilet santee & heel inlet as you now see it. Figured he should know or there was a change to code I didn't find!

As far as the toilet santee, Comm 82.30(8)(a)2.3 does allow a santee on its back for the toilet. This issue (santee on its back under toilet) was also directly addressed in a published article by a plumber on the WI Commerce plumbing board. This article again states the bend w/ heel inlet is prohibited and mentions the santee on its back is allowed w/ proper venting. Vent placement was inspectors recommendation. Code references are based on this article.

Per Comm 82.30(13)(b) the toilet is considered wet vented through the 2" pipe coming in from the right, however added the separate vent just to the left of toilet santee. Again, this was done on the advice of the inspector. There is only the tub & sink on that 2" pipe which is vented through the roof.

The two combo's on the sink drains were also done by myself. I made these errors thinking long sweep would be better for waste removal not thoroughly understanding the dynamics of waste flow & venting.

Ultimately, the errors are all mine and I will accept responsibility for them. Unfortunately, there also appears there was advice that I relied on that maybe I should not have, again my mistake. It was my gut feeling that the items shown were not right (as stated in my original post) and I wanted the experts on this board's opinion. I am glad I did! Now I just want to fix them and do it right.

Now you know.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Not sure what the date is on your text but your posted references don't align with the current web version of the Comm 82.30. You are right in that there is nothing strictly prohibiting the sani-tee on it's back as WI allows anything that meets the minimum radius requirement. Outside of that fact it's still not in good plumbing.

I feel bad for you and hope my next inspector is a lot better than yours.

 

[web_surfer]

Was using current version from Wisconsin Commerce Department off their web site.
First reference is correct.
Second reference should be "82.30(8)(a)2" for 3" pipe. ("...(a)3" is correct if used 4" pipe)
Third reference should be "82.31(13)(b)"