Bowl not filling enough

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by lbinx, Dec 10, 2011.

  1. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    I have two Toto toilets with GMAX valves. Both have always worked fine except it seems that the water level in the bowl after the flush sems to be too low.

    There is a rim or ledge in the bottom of the bowl that appears to be where the top surface of the water should be. But the water level is considerably lower than that, which results in more residue sticking to the sides of the bowl in that area.

    It is as if the bowl does not fill properly.

    Inside the tank, the water level reaches to about 1/4" from the top of the overflow, so the tank filling seems ok. Holding the lever down so that all of the water leaves the tank into the bowl does not help.

    Any advice?
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    If holding down the lever well past the flush momentum stage doesn't raise the level in the bowl, it must be to the high point of the trap. If you slowly pour water into the bowl, can you raise the level?
  3. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    Thanks. I will try pouring water into it to check it.
  4. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    Yes, pouring water directly into the bowl fills it properly. Also, slowly flushing it without pushing the flush lever all the way down flushes it and allows the bowl to fill properly.

    Flushing it normally seems to suck the water out of the bowl too fast and the flapper closes before the bowl is able to refill.

    Do you thing it might be simply an adjustment to the flapper chain that is necessary?
  5. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,043
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    It's more likely that the refill tube from the fill valve is not pointed down the overflow tube.
    This is what refills the bowl.
  6. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    Thanks for this suggestion. The refill tube goes into the overflow about 6". But I think I will replace it with a longer one, even though I am not that would matter since it goes in there long enough.

    I experimented with changing the length of the flapper chain and nothing really helped.

    I have noticed that if I hold the lever down after the flush, water will flow into the bowl to the proper level. However, it requires that one hold the lever down long enough. Otherwise the flapper opens and closes very quickly.

    This flapper opens and closes very quickly and all of the water in the tank does not have time to get out to the bowl. This is the flapper that came with the Toto.

    Did not the flappers in the older designs tend to float on top of the tank water once flushed, and then ride the tank water down?
  7. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,043
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The fill tube needs to end above the overflow tube.
    Placing the tube down the overflow can cause siphoning. Where is the clip that held the fill tube?


    [​IMG]


    This is a 1.6 or 1.28 gallon toilet. The flapper will close quickly.
    The last toilet that drained an entire tank was made in 1991.
    It's now 2011.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  8. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    It sounds like someone's been messing with it. I don't think the original tube was long enough to shove it 6 inches down the overflow. Like Terry said, there should be a clip holding the fill tube above the overflow.

    Does water come out the fill tube while the tank is being refilled?
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,043
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The best replacement fill valve for the Toto would be the MaxPerformance by Korky.
    It's allows adjustment of the bowl fill.
    Some fill valves will under fill the Toto bowl.
  10. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    The fill valve on my A-S comes up one cup short.
  11. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    Thanks to both of you. Actually, I have replaced the tube with a long one and discarded the clip in the process. I will go back and shorten the tube and secure it with some sort of clip.

    Although I did well in my college hydraulics class (Many years ago, 30 years before "1991" :)), I cannot understand why a possible siphoning effect of a longer tube would reduce the amount of water going into the bowl.

    Thanks for the info on a possible replacement for the whole assembly. I will do that if I can't get this one working right.
  12. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Nor can I. If anything, siphoning would have the effect of overfilling the bowl.

    The extra length of tube might tip the balance to divert more water to the tank and less water to the refill tube. It could also be that mineral buildup or sediment reduced the flow to the refill tube.
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,043
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    And yet ever single fill valve on the market has a siphon break for the overflow.

    The Korky 528 will underfill the bowl, The 528T and the Korky MaxPerformance will fill the bowl.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  14. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Ja, cuz if the level in the tank was to get siphoned down, it would try to fill it back up and waste a lot of water. Every drop of water that goes down the overflow tube goes in the bowl and eventually around the bend. Well... except for what the dog drinks.:p
  15. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,351
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    The amount of water a bowl will hold is determined by the height of the weir. You can't increase the water spot or overfill the bowl unless there is a clog. Forget about how those old water hog toilets worked, the flapper on new toilets is designed to close quickly. If you hold the flush handle down, you will empty the tank which is approximately 3-1/2 gallons. In other words, you totally defeat the low flow and it is certainly not a solution to the problem. You need to accept the fact that the Toto designers know what they are doing and quit trying to improve by adding or otherwise changing the inner workings.
  16. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    One of my commodes is on the second floor and the other one is on the third floor. I can imagine that the aggressive out rush of the water on the Toto could siphon water from the bowl as it flushes. Can't do anything about their locations or the outflow lines below.

    Sounds like the answer is to take Terry's advice and try a the Korky adjustable unit. I would prefer that it be made in the USA, however. Maybe Korky is -- I will find out.
  17. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    Thanks for your help. I love to save water, but prefer a clean commode first. :)
  18. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,043
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The Korky is made in the USA.

    Also about 25% of the Toto that I sell is made in the USA.

    There are cases where one toilet flushing will change the bowl level in other toilets.
    In my home, there are two on a fixture cross. When a toilet is flushed, the water skips across the forces air into the opposing bowl, which pushes the water up the bowl and out the drain.
    I plan to pull drywall and replumb the waste on those bathrooms, but for now, it is obvious when a bowl has been flushed from the other bathroom.
  19. lbinx

    lbinx New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Alabama
    Thanks for your advice, Terry. After over a month trying to get answers from Toto, who ultimately did send me two new flappers and flush arms (??), I purchased two Korky MaxPerformance fill valves from Lowe's and installed them. Eureka -- they work just fine and the bowls fill properly.

    One side point is that the installation instructions were the clearest for any product that I have bought in years. It is as if the Korky folks are able to communicate with fellow Americans ! :eek:

    You knew what to do.

    Lbinx
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