15 Inch Rough

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Joe Cuccinelli, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. Joe Cuccinelli

    Joe Cuccinelli New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    First want to thank you guys for all the info on Toto Unifit, I would have never heard anything about this if it wasn't for your site. I'm hoping you can share some advice on the below.

    We live in a house built in the 1930's and are remodeling a very small bathroom. The back wall to the door is about 59 inches and the toilet is on the back wall. The door opens inwards, and when it passess the leg area assuming someone stood in front of the bathroom, its about 34 inches from the end of the door to the back wall. So, if you have a 30 inch toilet you only have about 4 inches of room. To make things more complicated, the rough in measures about 14.75 inches. The old toilet which has been hauled off in a dumpster was an original toilet installed that accommodated that type of rough in and still optimized the space in the bathroom.

    We noticed this was an issue when our contractor threw in the toilet (mirabella) and it was 4.5 inches from the back wall. Oddly enough, this mirabella toilet is supposed to be a 12 inch rough in so one would expect the space on the wall to be around 2 - 3 inches. I definitely have the option to make the door swing outwards, but lets table that for a minute. My knowledge of rough in is very limited, self-taught via the school of Terry Love. My contractor has not been terribly helpful here other than saying we might be able to gain 1 - 2 inches. Another important note, we already tiled the floor (with some ridiculously expensive Italian tile my wife chose....) so moving the rough in is not an economical option. Hoping you could guide me in the right direction on options so I can serve them up to him.

    1. I know I need to ditch the Mirabella toilet and go with TOTO, at least that is what I understand. Do mirabellas with 12 inch rough ins usually leave a large gap behind them? Seems like even if we did have a 12 inch rough in, this toilet would still be 1.5 - 2 inches off the wall. Don't worry about this question too much, just curious now.

    2. Which toilet would you recommend to help me optimize the space? I would love one that was 26 inches in depth with a 14 inch rough in (or unifit extension), but I don't see any that fit that. Seems like the TOTO Carlyle with 14 inch unifit is my best option as its the smallest in depth that supports the unifit. Do you agree? Does the Carlyle rough in measure accurately when installed. If we installed that I would expect to see a 1 inch gap and the toilet would come out 29 inches, however, based on my experience with the Mirabella, I realize the rough in is not a precise science. Basically, which toilet could give me the least amount of depth from the back wall.

    3. If we decide the make the door open outwards, my focus now is more on which toilet can do the best job of closing the gap from toilet to wall as we no longer have the depth concern. Any suggestions?

    Sorry for the detail, but I've research this for over 6 hours the past few days and as you can see I am terribly confused.

    Thanks again

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?31868-14-quot-Rough-In-Toilet-Choices
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2012
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,641
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Regarding option #2. At one time 14" toilets had a specific bowl so the front was at the same location as a 12" rough. Now, however, they use the same bowl and a 2" "deeper" tank so the front is 2" further than a 12" rough, and in fact is the same spot that a 12" toilet would be but with 2" less space behind the tank. The only way to move the front of the toilet back is to re-rough the opening or use a Toto Uni-fit with the toilet slid back as far as possible.

    [​IMG]
    10" Unift, 12" Unifit and 14" Unifit adapter
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2012
  3. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,852
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Just a couple of clarifying thoughts:

    1. Just so we're sure, you're measuring the rough-in distance by making one end the finished wall and the other end the center of the closet bolts on each side of your toilet (i.e. the center of the hole in the floor), right? And by doing so, you get 14.75" as the rough-in.

    2. As HJ says, except for the Unifit Totos, we're not aware of any so-called 14" rough-in toilets that move the bowl back, but rather they just push the tank back to fill the gap, either by making it thicker or by mounting it further back on the bowl.

    3. There is no standard distance behind toilets. On a 12" rough-in, some 12" rough-in toilets use almost all the space to the wall (although the bowl is still far forward). Others leave about 3/4". Even others, like the original Toto Drake, leave well -- and I mean well -- over an inch.

    4. One important thing to consider is that some famous toilet manufacturers don't use clay that is as uniform as Toto, so the actual kiln-fired size of the toilet can vary over 1/2" (+/- 1/4" or more in either direction). Toilets shrink a remarkable amount when fired; if the material isn't consistent, the size of the finished product won't be either. So having that 3/4" behind allows for a lot of toilets to "pass" quality control at some manufacturers.

    5. So, with your Mirabelle (I don't know which one you have, but their Bradenton shows 1" behind on the spec sheet), on an inch space behind the toilet plus the 2.75 "extra" on your rough-in would give you a 3.75" gap behind. That's still short of your 4.5" gap, but it's a bit more in range than you probably expected. Add some variation in firing and it's still larger than expected but not that much.

    6. The options for skirted Totos that work with a unifit are the [all 28-5/16"] Vespin II (a skirted Drake II), Carolina II (skirted Supreme II), and Carlyle II (a skirted Ultramax II), as well as the Pacifica (29.5), Legato (28-7/16), Soiree (28-1/8"), Guinevere (28-1/4"). So the Soiree is going to be the shortest, but if you like it, you will need to really, really shop around if you want a good price (which is available if you look hard enough).

    Hope this helps.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2012
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,005
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    [​IMG]
    On the left is a TOTO Soiree with a 14" Unifit adapter.
    On the right is a 14" Cadet 3.
    Notice how little room there is with the Cadet 3 in this small Seattle bathroom.

    [​IMG]
    Now we compare the leg room.
    On the left, the TOTO Soiree with 14" Unift adpapter.
    On the right, the Cadet 3
    The TOTO wins the Race for Space.

    Just so you know, we took out the Cadet and replaced it with a Toto.
  5. Joe Cuccinelli

    Joe Cuccinelli New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I measured from the wall (not baseboard) to the center of the hole in the floor to get to 14.75. after reading point 5, this now makes lots of sense. The mirabelle Key West, which is the one I have, has about 3/4 inch to the wall. That coupled with the unifit and the imperfections of the toilets likely accounts for most of the gap.

    The Guinevere is a nice looking toilet, looks less modern. I think we're going to go with that. Thanks again for your assistance.
  6. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,852
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Hey, great! Always a pleasure to help. As our resident engineer Jim pointed out in a recent thread, there is also a little room to cheat when positioning the toilet or unifit over the flange. If it's important, you might be able to get 1/4" or so closer to the wall that way, although it may not be worth the effort.

    I don't know how far to the left of the toilet your water supply is, but the skirted toilet requires about 5-1/2" from the centerline, typically (the spec sheet calls for more but it isn't necessary). If you're less than that, or you have one of those supply lines with a giant handle, there are very easy options to fix that. Come back and talk to us if anyone tells you you have to move the supply. You don't. There's even a device made by a good company, Dahl Valve, that gives you a mini-ball-valve quarter-turn angle-stop and a 90 built into one little thing that just goes over the end of the existing pipe, which can be shortened. Works like a champ.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2012
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,641
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    The "powder room" shown it that photo is one of the most ridiculous rooms I have ever seen. I must have been designed by the guy who designed the "pullman toilets" on a train or the airplane facilities. It is so small you would have to go out of the room to change your mind.
  8. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    You are correct but I may be mistaken but it there a bit of trickiery in those pictures? In the pic where he's sitting on the Cadet or right, look where his crotch and back of his knees are? His butt isn't centered on the bowl or he's sitting a bit forward to exaggerate the distance a bit.
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,005
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Yes, you are right, there is "only" a 3-1/2" difference between the two elongated bowls in the photo.

    3.5"...............That's a bunch in a small room.


    Sometimes a bathroom has a non-standard dimension for the toilet rough-in. Standard is 12"

    Sometimes you will see a toilet roughed in at 14".
    You can always use a standard 12" rough toilet for this, but the bowl sets out from the wall an extra 2"
    You can order thicker tanks from some manufacturers, that hide the fact that the bowl is setting 2" farther out, but the end of the bowl will still be out in the room.

    The only manufacturer that "moves" the bowl back 2". is TOTO.
    You pay more though for this advantage.
    Models from Toto that allow you to move the bowl back 2" with their Unifit adapter are:
    Vespin
    Carlyle
    Carrollton
    Carolina
    Lloyd
    Pacifica
    Soiree
    Guinevere

    With the Vespin and Carlyle, the shutoff can be 7" to the left of center.
    With the Soiree and the Guinevere, the shutoff can be 5-1/2" to the left of center.

    Most of these are 28" long and set off from the wall 3/4"
    So on a standard 12" rough, the end of the bowl would be 28-3/4"
    If you have a 14" rough, you can switch for a 14" Unifit and keep the distance to 28-3/4"
    The 14" Unifit needs to be ordered in addition to the toilet.
    They come with the standard 12" Unifit, which winds up being an extra part.
    And no. I don't need anymore 12" Unifit adapters.

    So to explain how this works:
    Cadet 3 14" rough "round bowl" is 30-1/4" from the wall.
    Cadet 3 14" rough "elongated bowl" is 32-1/4" from the wall.
    Any of the Toto toilets above will be about 28-3/4" from the wall with the elongated bowl. Shorter then most other round bowls, and much shorter then the other elongated bowls.

    You pay more, but get a better toilet, and more usable space in the bathroom.

    Your call.

    [​IMG]
    10" Unift, 12" Unifit and 14" Unifit adapter
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