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Jadnashua

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Ditra Heat is an evolution of a well-established product - the original Ditra which is still very much a viable product. It works as an uncoupling mat with the added benefit of allowing easy design of a customized floor warming system. Heating wires have been around for a long time...Ditra has been around for a long time...I did say it was based on an established product. It took Schluter over a year (and maybe many more) to work out the kinks on this in the lab and test locations to get it to the retail version that is available now. Choice is good, this is another choice that solves some issues with electric floor warming as it has been done for years. Given Schluter's track record, and the advantages of this novel method, just like Ditra and Kerdi, I think you'll begin to see numerous competitive, similar products. It will take awhile given patents and whatnot, but just like there are lots of Ditra competitors, there are now lots of Kerdi competitors as well; the same will happen. Why wait, though? IF it suits your needs, go for it. For a pro, comfortable with leveling the floor after installation of a traditional mat or cable system, it will still take more time (and time is money), but it is something they know and have done before. For someone new to this, you only have to prep the floor once (it should be flat, like any of the other systems, suitable for tile before you start with the mat), you get the mat down, the wire in where you want it, and the risk of damaging a cable once you're at that state is almost non-existent. That's not true with any other available system out there in the market today.
 

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Jim: are you going to clear things up and honestlY answer the above question? Or continue to mislead people into thinking you actually insalled and tested the heat? Clear this up for all of us?
 

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For a pro, comfortable with leveling the floor after installation of a traditional mat or cable system, it will still take more time (and time is money), but it is something they know and have done before. For someone new to this, you only have to prep the floor once (it should be flat, like any of the other systems, suitable for tile before you start with the mat), you get the mat down, the wire in where you want it, and the risk of damaging a cable once you're at that state is almost non-existent. That's not true with any other available system out there in the market today.


This is so untrue , shame , shame , shame.


Flextherm is the pioneer and has not only proven record of it , but they have ( had ) the first fully protected and incorporated heating cable , designed few years ago .

The combination of the Flexsnap and Flextherm heating cable makes it a winner on all fronts.

But you wouldn't know that -- not even bother to check the facts -- , why would you ?

Spread more of the same BS with disregard of the other products .
 

Jadnashua

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Jim: are you going to clear things up and honestlY answer the above question? Or continue to mislead people into thinking you actually insalled and tested the heat? Clear this up for all of us?

If you read what I've posted more than once, I said I saw a demo of Ditra Heat being installed, and touched the stuff, and heard from them how it works and could see it myself. The actual heating cable concept is pretty simple and nothing novel...locking it into an uncoupling mat is. There is no other uncoupling mat out there today that this technique could be incorporated into. Putting the two together in a manner that is reliable and repeatable, then determining safe operating parameters plus being able to actually manufacture the stuff takes time...at least a year - in 2013, they said they had passed all of the tests for reliability and were tweaking the final configuration for manufacturing ease and easy field use. The stuff has passed the same durability for a tiled installation as any method and received as high as a heavy rating on the Robinson floor test. It works. There's not much to go wrong with a wire that has been made for many years. The only thing unique about this one is the specific insulation size was chosen to lock into the mat's slots, but there's nothing special about the wire itself. While another thermostat might work, this one was specifically programmed to accommodate the thermal mass of the thinset and the proximity to the air pockets in the uncoupling membrane to ensure the mat and the install remained reliable over time. This is why this is a 'System'...it is why a Kerdi shower is a 'System'...the parts are engineered and manufactured to specifically work together as integral parts. Nobody else makes a 'system' like this, which by definition makes it novel and may be patentable. Patents don't last forever, though, and Schluter now has some competitors, where previously, they were the sole provider of that method. FWIW, Schluter is the only company that has entries in the TCNA handbook that were developed specifically for them, not an adaptation of a generic product (like using a membrane with a clamping drain, or the use of a cbu in a shower). That other companies now make products that mimic theirs is a testament to the fact that they work. And, to all of the people that slammed Schluter on saying that drywall will work in a bonded, load bearing membrane shower, Laticrete's new Hydro-Ban sheet membrane's data sheet says the same thing, listing drywall as an acceptable substrate for their material.

If you want to make a traditional shower, fine, I'll help guide you on what is required. If you prefer to use cbu for some reason on your floor, I'll help you do it according to industry standards and manufacturer's instructions. But, in the process, I may suggest where other things may be a better choice and why, but I won't hold it against you or cease to help if you either disagree or prefer not to for one reason or another. What I won't stand up for is misusing materials or making statements that do not match industry standards...the refrain - I've been doing it that way for years and never had a problem just don't cut it with me and often, with the experiences of the industry. Things change, things evolve, doing it the same way as you've done it in the past may have worked with your specific situation (or not), but the best practices call for changes when new materials and expectations become the norm. Material science, computer design, computer modeling have made all sorts of products possible today that literally could not have been made not long ago. Don't knock it until you take the time to investigate and understand the benefits and maybe faults...the world is not the same as even yesterday. I have the luxury of being able to spend a fair amount of time investigating...if 'we always did it this way' was the norm, nothing new would be invented and things wouldn't improve.
 

Jadnashua

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This looks cool....

Superdrain

Description:

super-drain is a highly efficient drainage system that is installed over existing Waterproof barriers on outdoor terraces; it consists of a filtering fabric and a semi-rigid sheet of polyethylene.

The final thickness is 8 mm. Each sheet contains a series of circular nerves. with a diameter of 20 mm . Which provide super-drain with excellent resistance and water drainage properties. It is used to protect existing Waterproofing systems. Installation couldn’t be easier as the sheet is simply laid over the existing Waterproof barrier or levelling screed. When joining two sheets. make sure that these overlap a few centimetres. Place the sheet that is running in the same direction as the slope on top.
Sounds like a copy of Troba-Plus, which has been around for awhile.

Schluter-TROBA-PLUS is a reliable and permanently effective drainage layer for use in horizontal applications over sloped waterproofing layers. It consists of a high-impact, studded polyethylene sheet covered on one side with a water-permeable polypropylene filter fabric. The fabric-enhanced, studded side on which the surface covering assembly rests acts as a high-capacity drainage plane. TROBA-PLUS provides additional protection for the waterproofing layer. The closely positioned studs, shaped like truncated cones, have an extremely high load-bearing capacity. In addition, loads are distributed evenly over the entire waterproofing surface. The open area between the studs and the fabric creates an insulated air space that protects the waterproofing membrane against harmful thermal stress. Moreover, the insulated air space provides an effective sound barrier.
TROBA-PLUS stilts the mortar bed by 5/16" (8 mm) over the entire waterproofing surface. Thus, irregularities in the waterproofing layer that can lead to the collection of water, such as uneven sections or elevations at the seams, are effectively bridged. Major defects in the slope of the waterproofing layer can be corrected prior to the laying of TROBA-PLUS by applying an appropriate mortar.
 

Jadnashua

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Ditra Drain is an uncoupling mat that also allows some drainage...depending on the area, may be all you need. Over living space, Troba and Troba Plus (the Plus version has the fabric filter if you need it - you get a choice based on your situation) provides a more robust water management feature and the other points in the description I included above. Based on your situation, you can use any or all of the products to achieve your unique situation. Sound transmission through a mostly hard surface can be abated somewhat by having an engineered gap, so using something like one of these drainage mats can help minimize sound transmission through the assembly, which, can be a very useful thing. Your situation, your choice.

My point, though, was that many of these products you're posting are copies of what has been around for a long time. Not to say one is better than the other, but to point out that the need for this sort of thing has already been thought about, and a product developed that works. Copying something is a typical reinforcement of the viability and usefulness of a product, just like there are now copies of Kerdi and Ditra.
 

Jadnashua

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Kerdi was first introduced in 1987, but didn't make it to the USA for awhile. The same year the Ditra was introduced. So, it's been sold for over 25-years in some places...it has a good track record and as the patent has run out, numerous copy-cats in the past year or two. Schluter has a factory in Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada, where most of their sheet membranes are made for the US and Canada (not all). They make most sizes of KerdiBoard at a factory in Plattsburg, NY. Most of the profiles are made in Canada and those sold in the USA are 'finished' in Plattsburg (they punch the holes in the tile leg there rather than at the factory - the pieces are stronger during bulk shipping that way).
 

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Jim you should phone Nelson and Eric and Noble Company. Ask them about their sales call to Europe and the sample of DalSeal TS they showed people there.

It's an interesting story.

Do you know that DalSeal TS and NobleSeal TS was being sold before Kerdi came out?
The testing agency that Noble used to get the A118.10 on their TS sheet certification is dated 2001. Kerdi came out in 1987, but not brought to the USA for a number of years. I'll do some more research. It's certainly possible it may have been sold in the USA, but that doesn't mean it was the first in use.
 

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When I get reliable information, I will respond, I've requested info from those involved. In the meantime, I won't make assumptions and make fun of, or attempt to belittle those involved.

Schluter started out primarily manufacturing tile profiles. For decades, bullnose tile have been uncommon in most of the world, and there was a need to make a reliable, aesthetic way to both protect and preserve those edges. Over the years, their product line expanded, as does most companies out there.

Laticrete started out making mortars, and introduced the first commercially viable modified thinsets, and is common in any industry, expanded their product line over the years. If you happen to look at their current catalog, you'll see "NEW" next to a number of products including Strata_Mat, all of the NXT product line, half of the products listed in the Hydro-Ban category, and several other products.

SOme of their products compete directly, most do not, nor is the focus of the two companies along the same direction.
 

Jadnashua

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As far as I can tell from reliable resources, here's the story...

The first time the B422 procedure for a bonded membrane shower was introduced into the TCNA handbook was in 2001 at the request of Schluter to use their membrane with the bonded flange that they had started to make. Schluter had gone around to various drain manufacturers around the USA since the introduction of Kerdi to try to find someone to make them for them, but they could not find anyone to do it so they essentially went into that business and had them made. FWIW, they're shipping in the order of 4-500K a year now, at a decent price, so it seems those companies weren't very forward thinking. So, the first time there was a bonded structural membrane procedure in the industry bible (the TCNA handbook) was 2001, and it was promoted by Schluter, primarily to incorporate their drain assembly with their bonded membrane (Kerdi), as part of their Kerdi Shower System.

That TCNA procedure calls for a membrane meeting the ANSI spec A118.10. That spec was introduced by ANSI in 1993. So, in theory, prior to that, there was no spec to compare product performance against, nor any TCNA procedure to build a qualified shower (that took another 8-years). Any use of either Kerdi or NobleTS or any other product that may have been around, was done based strictly on the manufacturer's reputation and provided instructions, and not directly in accordance with the nationally recognized industry guidelines. That they could work is not in question, but whether they were approved by the plumbing code and local jurisdictions for those purposes was. An easily searched reference on that is when Massachusetts first listed NobleTS and Kerdi as acceptable in that state (Noble beat Schluter by a few months in getting that introduced to MA, but the rest of the country for the most part because of the TCNA B422 introduction had been using it since it was introduced, and available to anyone making compatible products). If you want to get picky, Schluter's drain was the basis along with their Kerdi for B422, and thus, was the first to be approved, but it is a fine point.

John was right, NobleTS was introduced before Kerdi - 1982 verses 1987. They perform similar jobs - provide a bonded waterproofing system. The installation instructions are not the same, and you cannot use the same procedure between the two and achieve a warranted, reliable job, though. The similarity is that to get a proper seam, you must overlap the material at least 2". Here is a big difference, though, with NobleTS, you use two beads of a sealant you caulk in place, place the edges together, then spread the material to embed the fleece between the two. Noble TS is over 3x thicker, and a corner may use one of their preformed ones or be cut and overlapped (you can do this with Kerdi as well, and was the only way prior to the introduction of the preformed corners), but you'll have a situation where it will have three layers or more - with the sealant in between, nearly 0.1" buildup. Kerdi is bonded with the same thinset you use to place it on the substrate, and make the seams. Their corners are made of thinner material, and again, you may need as many as three layers in places where the corner, the sheets, and the banding material go. But, the buildup is much less. NobleTS is 0.030" thick. Kerdi is 0.008" thick, and the Kerdiband is 0.005" thick, so the actual corner buildup is considerably thinner, and you do not need to use a special sealant to make it work, or to bond it to the drain flange. To NobleTS advantage, is that it is less vapor permeable, which in a steam shower is a good thing, but KerdiDS also meets the same spec for a commercial steam shower, and is still only 0.020" thick. Because of the sealant with the seams on NobleTS, you can flood test the system quicker, and that can be a useful advantage verses waiting long enough for the mortar to cure (nominally 24-hours).

Prior to the advent of the Schluter bonded Kerdi drain assembly, there was no TCNA approved bonded membrane procedure to build a shower. It may have been used, but wouldn't have passed everywhere since there were no standards for defining it. Prior to inventing and having the Kerdi drain produced, the TCNA guideline didn't exist. Any sheet membrane manufacturer used their own method to produce a bond to what was the commonly used clamping drain. Noble still has the materials to perform that task, essentially the same way it was done way back at the origination. They also have other drains that get bonded on the surface with sealant. Schluter has a conversion drain to raise the assembly, and provides essentially the same bonded flange as in their normal plastic cemented in flange if you already have a clamping drain installed. Both companies have all metal drains where those are required for fire code or other local ordinances.

Both systems are good, they each have their advantages, and to get it to work, you must follow their specific instructions and use the required materials. Once you've applied either membrane to the substrate properly, they both pass the industry requirements for a waterproof, bonded surface membrane shower and do not leak. Both NobleTS and KerdiDS exceed the requirements for a commercial steam shower's perm rating (0.15 verses 0.18), so the actual difference in total installed performance will be more of an installer's actual skill rather than a difference in material. (Note, the system install value may differ compared to the sheet perm rating by some, but both are still comfortably within the industry requirements).

So, it comes down to what you are comfortable with, and, especially if you're dealing with smaller tile, how thick of a buildup you might get in the corners, and how comfortable you are using the sealant required on the NobleTS system as to which ends up the best for your job. Personally, I prefer Schluter's product line. If a paying customer demanded NobleTS, I wouldn't have any issues using it, as it's a fine product, too. To me, I think there are more places to make an error with Noble's system, but if good workmanship and knowledge is utilized, they are both fine. Often, it comes down to the installers preferences, biases, and perceptions...what is an issue to one, may be a benefit to the other. John has a lot of biases, and this pushes him in one direction...me, I could go either way, depending on the specific situation involved. And, as I've said before, 1/4" glass is no more waterproof than 1/2" glass...it just depends on what else you are asking it to do for you in the equation. In between two hard surfaces, tile and the wall or pan, one is neither better or worse at keeping things waterproof, but might offer some other benefit for your specific application. They both pass the same industry tests for a successful, reliable, long-lasting shower IF you put it together like it was designed.
 

Jadnashua

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But, the industry accepted procedure to build a shower with it was not approved until Schluter produced their bonded membrane drain (B422.x), and then, TCNA approved it as a method, based on it in 2001. There was no industry standard to validate a bonded, load-bearing waterproofing membrane until 1993 when A118.10 was defined and companies were able to have their products verified it met those requirements, long after both Noble and Schluter had products out there. Prior to that, it was a 'trust me' situation, and maybe a fight with the local approval authorities.

Schluter was the first to be approved based on B422, primarily because they went to the trouble to complete the bonded membrane shower system with the introduction of a drain specifically designed for that class of material. Prior to that, you lost some of the benefit of a surface bonded membrane because of having to adapt to a clamping drain...that required a hat shaped membrane, sealant, and be filled with deck mud and had weep holes. Essentially, a small, but always present area of deck mud on top of the membrane near the drain. That method is still used by Noble, if you do not use one of their surface drains. The wettest part of the shower, where all of the water accumulates, still has a hunk of deckmud when done that way. The surface, bonded membrane drain eliminates all of that, and is the basis of the B422 procedure that brought the industry to the modern world with a complete system of surface bonding, and only the setting materials on top of the membrane.
 

Jadnashua

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BLAA BLAA BLAA

Jim you keep blocking out this little puppy of Noble's. Turns any drain into a B422 drain. These Noble Flex Flashings out before Kerdi had a drain. They cost under thirty bucks. Last time I saw a Kerdi drain for sale it was over a hundred.

8884_group.jpg


Did you know that Noble's products have a better perm rating than Kerdi Jim? Or do you block that out as well? Do you know that with Kerdi you have to use a Kerdi Drain but with Noble any approved clamping drain works?

drain-flashing-01.jpg

You obviously don't read what I write...when I compared NobleTS to Kerdi, one of the things I included was the perm ratings. Which, only apply for rational use when building a steam shower. And, then, the actual membrane for a commercial one from Schluter would be KerdiDS. While the assembled perm rating for both is different, the actual membrane perm rating for NobleTS is only 0.03 better than KerdiDS...the builder skill and assembly choices will make far more difference than the actual membrane used.

And, you seem to have missed the point about converting or using a mudbed with the Noble hat...depends on whether you're doing a bonded mudbed over a slab or one over a subfloor (which would be much deeper chunk of deckmud). But, in either case, you have deckmud at the wettest portion of the shower - the area around the drain. Schluter's choice to do this today is their conversion drain, which you seal in place and replace the clamping ring and the upper drain assembly with a bonded flange, almost the same as the glue-on one. Noble has some that are surface bonded, too, and they are not inexpensive, either. Keep in mind, the Kerdi drain kit comes with the inside and outside corners for your shower build and the seals for your shower valve and showerhead, some KerdiFix, and the adapter ring, so the cost is not only for the drain itself. Apples to apples, this is not. Since Schluter sells, systems, they sell you the parts you'll need in the package. People are less likely to try to improvise, when they have all the parts designed to work together, rather than trying to assemble them on their own.
 

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Jadnashua

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And, if you looked at the Schluter conversion drain assembly, you'd see that you do not put ANY of the liner or hat or whatever in place to make a seal...you use the KerdiFix, they include in the kit to seal the adapter to the lower part of the drain after retaining the bolts and throw the rest away, and that then bolts down making a permanent seal - the part on top is just like the conventional glue-in drain flange, and you bond your surface membrane to it without having a hunk of deckmud on top of your waterproofing (a la a conventional liner and drain) and there's no need for weep holes or to keep them open. Why one would go with a surface membrane, then put a chunk of deckmud with weepholes into a conventional drain assembly just does not make sense to me...but, you like it, so it must be great:rolleyes:. Now, I did say that they have their own design drain assembly if you are not trying to reuse or modify a conventional clamping drain, but then, the costs, when you compare everything that is in the Schluter kit, is close.

So, as I see it, you can use a clamping drain with the NobleTS system and have a hunk of deckmud around your drain, use one of their surface drains and avoid that, or in all cases, whether starting from fresh or converting, the Schluter Kerdi drain always uses the surface flange as the top layer and you don't have to mix up more deck mud after your base has cured and then you can install your membrane - just another step that can get messed up, and another wait for that to cure before tiling.
 

ShowerDude

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So, as I see it, you can use a clamping drain with the NobleTS system and have a hunk of deckmud around your drain, use one of their surface drains and avoid that, or in all cases, whether starting from fresh or converting, the Schluter Kerdi drain always uses the surface flange as the top layer and you don't have to mix up more deck mud after your base has cured and then you can install your membrane - just another step that can get messed up, and another wait for that to cure before tiling.


Jim that hunk of deckmud is in fact a safety net AKA as a weep system, it also doubles to help us lower the overall height of the ugly JUMBO shower curbs we keep seeing these days, it also accomadates the fact that many times we get to a shower project after the plumber has installed the drain flange tight to the subfloor? I find a lot of clients dont want to back up and re-do the plumbing for the orange drain, and they doubl-y do not like the idea of forcing it to work with the adaptor kit? Just what ive found out in the field, the real jobsite world..... You are not experienced in the field of building enough to even argue this. You are just reciting jargon and arguing to sell another brand and promote a texas website......Its that simple. I see you for what you are.

I may add further, That as far as I can see here on this site, and your texas site, and then just taking a general look online, that it seems to be your favorite shower system or Brand or method is the one I find when i search for failed showers? especially flood tested shower pans.

XO-Redshoe
 

Jadnashua

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The NobleFlex drain flashings come in two versions...bonded mudbed, and unbounded mudbed (my description - 3/4" or 1.5" heights). The Kerdi conversion drain's tileable surface at the outer edge of the top surface of the drain flange (about 6" from the center) sits at 2-1/16" from the bottom surface of the clamping drain (everything else is replaced). So, after you screw on your drain assembly to the Noble system when you are using the 1.5" flashing, approximately like that shown in John's option C, the tile end up...almost the same place. Done over a slab with a bonded mudbed, yes, the tiling surface will be lower. Or, replace the drain, which is an option on any of them...or, choose the system that works out best for your application.

I believe, the whole purpose of making and certifying a surface bonded waterproof membrane is to avoid the mudbed ever getting wet and just use it to produce your slope and often, straighten up the floor. The independent testing of the Kerdi Shower systems says it works without leaking, when following instructions. Why would I want a secondary path for water there, and, as in any mudbed directly beneath tile, it will become wet since there is no additional membrane applied on top over that area? If they do, and you believe the stuff works (I do), why leave the weep holes there at all?

IOW, why would you want a mudbed (even though it is not huge) sitting above your surface bonded waterproofing layer AKA a conventional clamping drain, when you do not need it? I thought the whole idea was to keep the minimum amount of stuff in a shower totally dry, not waterproof it, then throw some more deck mud on top of it. If the height is that big a deal, tear out the drain, and put in one that provides all of the benefits. If it is a typical subfloor, you could use your inside cutter and have that old one off and the 'proper' one on in less time than we've been typing about it and avoid that deckmud there entirely, at least on the surface of your membrane.
 
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