Regeneration time...

[Plumbingnoob]

I have two backwashing acid neutralizers followed by a water softener...I know if I put one of them in manual regeneration cycle it is like a 99 minute process! But there is a setting to set regeneration time for 14 minutes (or it could be backwashing...I forget). Anyways, currently I have the 1st acid neutralizer set to regen once every three days at 2:00 AM, the 2nd is set every three days at 2:30 AM, and the softener is set to regen every three days (although it is a demand so only as needed) at 3:00 AM. Is this sufficient or do I need to space out one regen every two hours (AKA 1st set for 2:00 AM, 2nd set for 4:00 AM, and 3rd set for 6:00 AM).

Also, is my private well going to have enough water to support all of this backwashing every three days, lol?

 

[Mialynette2003]

If I were you I would set the pH units to regen a day apart. In other words, pH unit #1 regens on Mon then 3 days later and unit #2 regens on Tue then 3 days later. The regen should start at 12am. If the metered softener is going to regen, than the start time would be 2am. This way you do not have multiple units regening at the same time.

 

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[Plumbingnoob]

If I were you I would set the pH units to regen a day apart. In other words, pH unit #1 regens on Mon then 3 days later and unit #2 regens on Tue then 3 days later. The regen should start at 12am. If the metered softener is going to regen, than the start time would be 2am. This way you do not have multiple units regening at the same time.

I'd like to do that but it seems really hard to do since it appears I can not specifically set which days a unit regens. I think the work around would be have unit one regen for first cycle everyday and after the first day set to every three days. Have unit two regen every two days and after the first cycle set for every three days and unit three to regen every three days so there is a one day off set between regens.

For the time being I just have set for every three days (2 AM, 4 AM, and 6 AM)

 

[Reach4]

Do you know what the controllers are? If not, post pictures (under 800 pixels) of the different control heads.

 

[Plumbingnoob]

Do you know what the controllers are? If not, post pictures (under 800 pixels) of the different control heads.

Here is what I am working with:

Times 2 of this for the acid neutralizers:



And the water softener's head:

 

[Reach4]

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/en-us/Products/Electronics/Logix+740_760.htm
has a link to download the Owner's' Manual for the clock section. You may already have that.

I don't see how to set the two filter controllers to get their 3-day countdown for different days. I suspect triggering a manual regen (page 6) for one only controller on consecutive days would do it. I don't see how to tell how many days remain until the next regen, but I suspect there is a way.

Also see item 12 on page 27. It would seem that says that the recycle sign will blink during the day preceding the next regeneration.

 

[Plumbingnoob]

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/en-us/Products/Electronics/Logix+740_760.htm
has a link to download the Owner's' Manual for the clock section. You may already have that.

I don't see how to set the two filter controllers to get their 3-day countdown for different days. I suspect triggering a manual regen (page 6) for one only controller on consecutive days would do it. I don't see how to tell how many days remain until the next regen, but I suspect there is a way.

Also see item 12 on page 27. It would seem that says that the recycle sign will blink during the day preceding the next regeneration.

That seems like a good idea. I know a lot of this information is not readily available over the web. If the backwash cycle is set for 14 minutes - I would assume I would only need 15 minutes in between cycles...it's not quite clear on this. 2:00 AM (1st) -> 2:15 AM (2nd) -> 2:30 AM (3rd) should technically work

 

[Reach4]

Before changing the backwashing cycle or making other changes to the times the cycle, ask the people who you bought the system from what appropriate times are. I would have thought they would have given you a sheet with that information.

It would surprise me if the length of time to perform an immediate regeneration was different from the length of time to perform a scheduled regeneration.

Why do you have 2 neutralizers? Do they have different media? Are they in series with each other, or are they in parallel?

 

[Plumbingnoob]

Before changing the backwashing cycle or making other changes to the times the cycle, ask the people who you bought the system from what appropriate times are. I would have thought they would have given you a sheet with that information.

It would surprise me if the length of time to perform an immediate regeneration was different from the length of time to perform a scheduled regeneration.

Why do you have 2 neutralizers? Do they have different media? Are they in series with each other, or are they in parallel?

They recommended at least thirty minutes apart but I don't feel too comfortable with that considering when you force manual regen it is like a 90 minute+ operation. Backwash is 14 minutes but the whole cycle is much longer as you know. The media in the first AN is purely calcite where as the second acid neutralizer is a mix of 2/3rds calcite and 1/3rd Flo Mag (coresex). The starting pH for my system is 5.2 and we have a flow rate of 8.2 GPM. The units are in series with eachother and each has a bypass valve. The order is AN #1 (calcite only) ---> AN#2 (1.0 cu ft calcite + 0.5 cu ft of Flo Mag) -----> 30,000 grain demand water softener ----> to house

 

[Gary Slusser]

You have Autotrol valves. The time required for a backwashed filter (not a regeneration), is the total minutes from the beginning of the backwash until the end of the settle rinse. The timer will take 90-99 minutes to get back to Service on the display but the last say hour plus it was in Service anyway. I.E. backwash 14 minutes, pause 4 minutes, rinse 10 minutes, a total of 28 minutes and why you were told 30 minutes.

The softener will have more cycle positions like brine/slowrinse (usually up to an hour) and refill so it will take maybe 90 minutes to get into Service at the end of refill but, the timer will still take 90 minutes or more for the display to show Service.
a
I do not agree with "in series" of calcite only in one filter and then mixed bed in the other filter. I would suggest parallel. Also, the mix ratio of 50% (.5ft and 1.0 ft) is going to increase the pH too far, IMO. I would have used 80%/20% in both filters plumbed side by side.

The reason to stagger the backwashes is to allow the well to recover before using more water that may suck the dynamic water level down too far in the well and cause water quality or pump or water volume problems. You could pause 30 minutes between the backwashes of the filters set on the same night with the parallel setup and the softener 30 minutes after the last filter finished. The softener will backwash with less gpm and for a shorter length of time than the filters and then go into slow rinse/brine draw for at least an hour normally and the well will be recovering during that time, then it goes into rinse and refill if the refill isn't done at the same time as that final (settle) rinse.

 

[Plumbingnoob]

You have Autotrol valves. The time required for a backwashed filter (not a regeneration), is the total minutes from the beginning of the backwash until the end of the settle rinse. The timer will take 90-99 minutes to get back to Service on the display but the last say hour plus it was in Service anyway. I.E. backwash 14 minutes, pause 4 minutes, rinse 10 minutes, a total of 28 minutes and why you were told 30 minutes.

The softener will have more cycle positions like brine/slowrinse (usually up to an hour) and refill so it will take maybe 90 minutes to get into Service at the end of refill but, the timer will still take 90 minutes or more for the display to show Service.
a
I do not agree with "in series" of calcite only in one filter and then mixed bed in the other filter. I would suggest parallel. Also, the mix ratio of 50% (.5ft and 1.0 ft) is going to increase the pH too far, IMO. I would have used 80%/20% in both filters plumbed side by side.

The reason to stagger the backwashes is to allow the well to recover before using more water that may suck the dynamic water level down too far in the well and cause water quality or pump or water volume problems. You could pause 30 minutes between the backwashes of the filters set on the same night with the parallel setup and the softener 30 minutes after the last filter finished. The softener will backwash with less gpm and for a shorter length of time than the filters and then go into slow rinse/brine draw for at least an hour normally and the well will be recovering during that time, then it goes into rinse and refill if the refill isn't done at the same time as that final (settle) rinse.

Gary, you are correct. I overshot the ph big time but was only following instructions given by the people i bought the equipment from. The starting point was 5.2 and currently at the kitchen sink i am receiving ph test strip results of 10. The pool stores ph test indicated the highest ph for their tester, at the very least ph of 8.2. I guess the conditions will be very basic for some time but after a year when the more media needs to be refilled im assuming if i just use calcite it should bring ph closer to 7... I wonder if any adverse affects healthwise can come with taking showers and drinking high ph water

 

[Reach4]

General comment-- not a suggestion: It sure seems inefficient to add calcium in the form of calcium carbonate to raise the pH, and then replace the calcium with sodium in the softener. It would seem more efficient to just add sodium hydroxide with a metering system -- cheap and compact. Maybe there could be a feedback system to adjust the amount. I guess the problem is that it is not as fail safe. Maybe there could be an alarm to alert you if the pH goes too high.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Calcite alone won't raise your 5.2 to 7.0. It probably wouldn't do more than maybe 6.0. Corosex will dissolve before Calcite and it will be gone much sooner.

You should post the name of those you bought from and get back to them to see what they suggest you do now.

 

[Plumbingnoob]

Calcite alone won't raise your 5.2 to 7.0. It probably wouldn't do more than maybe 6.0. Corosex will dissolve before Calcite and it will be gone much sooner.

You should post the name of those you bought from and get back to them to see what they suggest you do now.

will do...I bought from B_udgetwater. But if you think about it the total concentration of corosex is 0.5 cu ft out of 3.0 cu ft (I have two 1.5 cu ft tanks in series). Meaning 5/6 is calcite or 16.5% corosex mixture per tank (although I have it set up with 33% of one tank with corosex). Would that really make a difference if the corosex was distributed evenly across both tanks instead of stacking all in one? I'm going to give them a call today to see if they have any suggestions...luckily I can play around on my own with bypass valves and try the corosex tank alone to see what type of pH level I get with the strips. Maybe the solution would be as easy as putting the corosex tank first in series followed by the pure calcite since calcite typically cannot go much higher than pH 7.

 

[Gary Slusser]

The Corosex is mixed with Calcite in one tank after the other tank with only Calcite in it. The pH of the water out of the first tank is going to be maybe 5.8-6.0 depending on the flow rate gpm (contact time it takes to flow) through the first filter. Then that pH hits the 2nd tank and the Corosex is going to be used (dissolved) faster than the Calcite and that means there is a constant reduction in the volume of Corosex and eventually the pH will not be corrected (raised) as much as it was in the past but, it will still be higher than the 7.0-7.2 you wanted. What you do then is add more Corosex but, you need to mix it with the Calcite, not just pour it in on top of the Calcite so... mixing wet Calcite with dry Corosex isn;t gong to happen. So you throw the Calcite out, buy new and mix and add the mix to the tank and you're back to where you are now. That doesn't seem to me to be a good deal on any level. How do you see it?

In the mean time, you have a very high pH which is a bad thing all around plus a much lower flow rate than you'd have with the filters in parallel.

 

[Plumbingnoob]

The Corosex is mixed with Calcite in one tank after the other tank with only Calcite in it. The pH of the water out of the first tank is going to be maybe 5.8-6.0 depending on the flow rate gpm (contact time it takes to flow) through the first filter. Then that pH hits the 2nd tank and the Corosex is going to be used (dissolved) faster than the Calcite and that means there is a constant reduction in the volume of Corosex and eventually the pH will not be corrected (raised) as much as it was in the past but, it will still be higher than the 7.0-7.2 you wanted. What you do then is add more Corosex but, you need to mix it with the Calcite, not just pour it in on top of the Calcite so... mixing wet Calcite with dry Corosex isn;t gong to happen. So you throw the Calcite out, buy new and mix and add the mix to the tank and you're back to where you are now. That doesn't seem to me to be a good deal on any level. How do you see it?

In the mean time, you have a very high pH which is a bad thing all around plus a much lower flow rate than you'd have with the filters in parallel.

Wow, that sounds painful. Removing the media completely could be an arduous task! I'm thinking when the corosex is completely dissolved and the pH level noticeably drops off - I might just add 0.2 Cu Ft of corosex mixed with 0.3 Cu Ft of calcite. I don't really have a target pH but I am happy I am no longer at the 5.2 corrosive nature water I had before. The only things I really care about are: safe to drink, non corrosive to plumbing system, and OK to bathe in without any adverse effects. I heard high pH can be bad due to hardness or calcium build up but I think with the softener reducing the hardness to 1-2 grains that should be a non issue.

 

[Gary Slusser]

You need 7.0 to stop corrosion.

 

[Plumbingnoob]

You need 7.0 to stop corrosion.

Hmm, that is different than what I have been reading. High pH can typically cause scaling due to hardness (or high level of calcium precipitating). With the water softening removing the hardness with sodium precipitation or solid formation is less likely. Please stop scaring me, Gary...

 

[Gary Slusser]

Scaring you? Really?

The pH scale runs from 0-14, 7 being neutral (balanced), not high. So wherever you are getting that 7 is not correct needs to be corrected.

From the link below - Acids are 1-6 on the pH scale. Bases are 8 and over on the pH scale. Neutral is 7 on the scale.

BTW, acid water dissolves hardness scale (not to mention all kinds of metals etc.) and then prevents hardness scale from forming in plumbing etc.. I have never heard of "sodium precipitation".

http://sciencesummative.wordpress.com/sciences/chemistry/ph-scale/

 

[Plumbingnoob]

Scaring you? Really?

The pH scale runs from 0-14, 7 being neutral (balanced), not high. So wherever you are getting that 7 is not correct needs to be corrected.

From the link below - Acids are 1-6 on the pH scale. Bases are 8 and over on the pH scale. Neutral is 7 on the scale.

BTW, acid water dissolves hardness scale (not to mention all kinds of metals etc.) and then prevents hardness scale from forming in plumbing etc.. I have never heard of "sodium precipitation".

http://sciencesummative.wordpress.com/sciences/chemistry/ph-scale/

Understood, I would like 7.0 pH but at 9.5 or 10 with soft water there is relatively no risk of corrosion which is the only reason I provided an objection to your previous statement of "You need 7.0 to stop corrosion". Let's face it there is no corrosion of plumbing with basic water (ph > 7). No hard feelings man! I hope you understand my position.