Recessed LED Recommendation

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by joseph skoler, Mar 20, 2021.

  1. joseph skoler

    joseph skoler Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Location:
    Sullivan County, NY
    I'm renovating a large house and plan to install approximately 150 recessed LED ceiling lights (in addition to hanging lights and wall sconces).

    Does anyone have any experience with the Sylvania products?

    Specifically: Slim MicroDisk, 6", 1200 lumens, 90 CRI, 5 CCT selectable (2700/3000/3500/4000/5000), 16W, >0.9 PF, 120V, phase-cut dimmable

    Here is the link to the product page:

    https://tinyurl.com/2yfxd38h

    Or, if anyone has a recommendation, that would be great.

    Thank you!
     
  2. WorthFlorida

    WorthFlorida The wife is still training me.

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Orlando, Florida
    No experience with that type of fixture. It seems nowaday that China makes the product and any company will slap their product name on it. It is nice where you can change the color. LED colors 2700, 3000, and 3500 are what I prefer. Above that it might as well be a fluorescent light. Here could be a future problem. LED light is still revolving and with 150 of the same fixture, there are going to be failures. Everyone claims 50,000 hours but that is for the LED itself. It's usually the driver that fails due do defects, surges and wear and tear. If you have a failure and need a replacement?

    This type of fixture the driver is separate from the exposed LED surface. The driver can be left on top of the drywall or needs to be anchored. If you have to change one out, it will not be easy if the electrical inspector wants the fixture mounted. You need to read the installation instructions on the recommended mounting, if any.

    I personally do not like this type of LED fixture. It's nothing but a hole cut through the drywall. To prewire it be tough so mounting the driver to a floor joist may be preferred at least for the electrician. Then where do the drywallers cut holes and what happens if there is a floor joist in the way? Some areas of the country, With fixtures in the ceiling with attic space above, there are insulation requirements to meet the local energy requirements. I prefer traditional recessed insulated can fixtures using LED BR30 flood lights, ~6-7 watts each (60 watt equivalent). They can be dimmed and are instant on. I have six of them in my kitchen. One drawback is the electrical load requirement. Since a traditional recessed can are rated usually up to 90 or 120 watt with incandescent lamps, the load calculations for the circuit must be for the maximum power the total fixtures in the circuit used.

    The fixture you asked about is good for a small remodel say for one or two rooms. A whole house project may be more cumbersome, not saying it can't be done. Over the years I seem to prefer Philips brand LED lights. A project this size your going to need an electrician and you should ask him or her their take on it. They'll know the quirks the local electrical inspectors have.
     
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  4. wwhitney

    wwhitney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2019
    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    Best to buy 5% to 10% extra and store them for replacements.

    A single joist can't block the 6" hole, as the disk is thinner than the drywall, so it can straddle the joist. And if the joist is at the edge then the disk can be rotated so that the two spring clips are on a line parallel to the joist.

    A double joist can potentially block the 6" hole enough. The clips are about 1" tall on the models I've dealt with. So you'd need to notch one of the joists ~1/2", which is not allowed in the central 1/3 of the span.

    If you want the drywallers to cut the holes, the best thing would be to use a mounting plate on the underside of the joists. That could just be a piece of sheet metal that spans two joists with the 6" hole cut in at the desired location. That becomes a guide for the drywallers to cut the hole, and lets you choose a position that won't hit a joist. At least one manufacturer sells a plate like that which if I recall also has an easy way to attach the driver to it.

    Agree that the style of fixture is not a good choice when the top story ceiling drywall is the building air barrier. Then it would be better to use a junction box mount light, so the junction box can be installed and sealed to the ceiling drywall before attic insulation. Or use a conventional can and properly air seal it.

    CRI 90 alone is not the best for color rendition, it is recognized that it undervalues the red part of the spectrum. So California's standard for LED lights (called JA8 or sometimes just Title 24 or Title 20) also requires a sufficiently high R9 score. Therefore I recommend looking for JA8 compliant fixtures.

    Cheers, Wayne
     
  5. joseph skoler

    joseph skoler Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Location:
    Sullivan County, NY
    Thank you all so very much.

    I'm unclear as to whether these types of fixtures (the thin, clip in place type) would be good for a whole house renovation?

    I understand with 150 electronic circuits (drivers) and low voltage connections between driver and light, reliability and consistency might be a problem.

    Regarding CRI 90: I see JA8 rated lights with a CRI 90. Maybe I'm misunderstand.

    Would either of these be better?

    https://www.lampsplus.com/products/...ic-rated-recessed-j-box-downlight__86j98.html

    https://www.lampsplus.com/products/...5-cct-selectable-led-recessed-kit__99r69.html


    Other than that, replicability (ordering 10% extra is reasonable) and the CRI 90 problem, is there any other reason not to use these?

    Or is there a better, non-bank-breaking solution?
     
  6. wwhitney

    wwhitney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2019
    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    JA8 is a stronger standard than just asking for CRI 90. It requires CRI 90, plus an additional minimum score on rendering red (R9 value), plus a limit on flicker, plus some other limits. So I'm suggesting JA8 to get a better light source.

    WAC, Halo, Sylvania are all name brands. This seems like it might be a good time to stick with name brands, versus say "Cyber Tech".

    Here's an example of the mounting frames I mentioned. They seem like a good idea to me for new construction. I wonder if they are easier to install than just putting in a conventional can or a j box. In situations where you aren't completely sure ahead of time exactly where you want your light (e.g. if you want it centered exactly over your countertop edge in a kitchen), you can omit the frame, wire the driver at rough, and then cut the hole in the drywall late (although that is messy).

    https://www.cooperlighting.com/glob...microedge-direct-mount-downlight/hl6rsmf.html

    What is your upper air barrier surface? As I mentioned, if it is your ceiling drywall, then I would not recommend the thin disk lights for that ceiling.

    Cheers, Wayne
     
  7. joseph skoler

    joseph skoler Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Location:
    Sullivan County, NY
    Got it!

    1st and 2nd floor ceiling will have mineral wool insulation between joists (for noise control) -- nothing else. 3rd floor ceiling will have air (that is part of the conditioned environment -- i.e., inside the envelope).

    Does this look good:

    https://www.waclightinglights.com/product/wac-lighting-lotos-recessed-r6erdr-w9cs-wt.html

    R6ERDR-W9CS

    Thanks!
     
  8. joseph skoler

    joseph skoler Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Location:
    Sullivan County, NY
    I've been looking around and these sure seem nice.

    They are not JA8 compliant.

    But, they are WAC (a respected company), color temp adjustable, dimmable and much less expensive that some of the alternatives.

    Anyone have any experience with these:

    WAC Lighting - R6ERDR-W9CS
     
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