Obviously, a leak, can't find it

[livemusic]

Background, 1959 brick home on slab, so, it's 59 years old. FWIW... my washing machine was leaking a little water on the floor upon rinse and spin cycle. Replaced faucets and hoses, they appeared corroded but that wasn't it. It appeared to be a clogged drain, which goes into the wall and that probably runs in to the sewer line.

We dug up the lines outside the house opposite the washroom. Found a 2" cast iron pipe coming out the wall, which was cemented into a clay pipe or tile or whatever you call that old sewer pipe. Also found the 3/4 PVC line that brought water from the main into the house. There was also an outside faucet couple feet away.

A friend who claims to be a plumber was helping me, lol.

We used different types of snakes and investigated this and that and didn't solve anything. So, he surmised that drain coming out the wall (59 years old) must be clogged. He elected punch a hole in the clay pipe to get a snake in from outside. He did that and it seemed to be clogged toward the house, the downstream side (clay pipe) was clean as could be. He then cut out a section of the cast iron drain pipe and, yes, it was clogged going into the wall of the house. Pretty solidly clogged full of hard gunk. We got all that clogged out and then it was on to reconnect everything to end the repair.

I won't go into all the details but it did not go smoothly, lol. Finally got it all done the washer works. Everything works. But... I discovered that the water meter at the main at the street is moving, indicating flow, when the water is turned on but nothing is running at the house! We checked faucets, toilets (even turned them off), turned off water heater and outside hydrants... can't think of anything else. And yet, the meter indicates 24 gph of water flow going SOMEwhere!

Can't find any wet spot in the lawn, no water in the house. Now, when he put all the PVC pipes back together for the water line outside the house, and the outside water hydrant... this is all at the big hole we dug outside the washroom... there is a slight drip from one or two of those connections. It's slow drips. I think it would take hours to fill up a gallon jug. I didn't fill the dirt in, I left it open until we solve all of this.

Now, 24 gph of water flow is going somewhere according to the meter. We also filled up a five gallon bucket and timed it. This was from an open standard size water hose with nothing on the end, just open end. To fill that bucket came to be about 72 gph. So, the 24 gph of water flow that is disappearing somewhere is a pretty good flow of water loss.

How on earth can I find this leak? I thought it was ironic that this happened right when we did all of this repair. Surely it has something to do with making up all these connections? I have surmised that maybe the banging and whatnot... it could have busted near where we dug the big hole to get at everything? Would you think that hole would fill with water soon? I have left the water main ON... losing 24 gph... so I could hopefully see water somewhere, or a damp spot. Now, we've had a drought, I wonder how long it will take it to show up?

My water bill has been normal and I just got a bill a few days ago, but I don't know when they read the meter. My point is, it's possible the leak existed prior to starting the dig a couple days ago.

I also wondered if maybe the city might have the meter programmed to flow x-amount as some kind of minimum, but that seemed unlikely. I checked a neighbor's house and it does NOT move when nothing is "on" in the house when the water main is open.

Of course, I should add that when I close my water main, the meter does NOT move. So, it appears to be a leak between my house and meter.

We have had numerous leaks over 60 years but once we got all the old pipes replaced with PVC, they come less now.

How the heck can I find this leak? If you have any suggestions on anything whatsoever, advise, as I know enough to be dangerous. I also hate wasting water. And it can get expensive.

How the heck can I find this leak?

 

[Reach4]

You have a valve where the water comes into the house. Close that valve. Does the water meter still indicate a flow?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[livemusic]

There is no valve where the water comes into the house. You turn the main flow of water off and on at the meter at the street. As I said, if I turn that off, the meter does not move at all; if I turn it on, the meter indicates 24 gph of water flow going somewhere, yet, there is nothing on at the house. Has to be a leak!

Bear in mind, I did report that there is a drip of a leak where he put the PVC water line and joints back together. But it hasn't filled near a cup's worth in hours now.

 

[Reach4]

There is no valve where the water comes into the house. You turn the main flow of water off and on at the meter at the street. As I said, if I turn that off, the meter does not move at all; if I turn it on, the meter indicates 24 gph of water flow going somewhere, yet, there is nothing on at the house. Has to be a leak!

Bear in mind, I did report that there is a drip of a leak where he put the PVC water line and joints back together. But it hasn't filled near a cup's worth in hours now.

Time to get a whole house shutoff valve, I would think. It would be useful for isolating where the leak is now, but it would also be useful if a pipe broke. Maybe while you are at it, get a big whole house cartridge filter, and a thermal expansion tank. Search for that term to understand why you might want/need that.

 

[livemusic]

How can I find this leak other than waiting for a damp spot on the lawn to show up? Is there any other way? Or just start digging up the water line near where the big hole is where we installed the new connections? I have no idea but I don't do want to do something stupid because if I go to digging, this could take days.

 

[Reach4]

There are leak finding specialists. I think they have special equipment that listens for leaks.

For diy, I would try to determine if the leak is in the house or in the yard. A new valve could tell you that. If in the yard, yes, look for the water or the green spot among the brown if you have a long-enough drought.

If the leak is in the house, maybe it is into the crawl space. Maybe it is coming out of the water softener drain line. Maybe it is coming out of the water heater T+P relief valve. Or a toilet is sending water down the drain.

Turn off what you can. Toilets. Input to the water heater. See if any of that makes a difference.

 

[Jadnashua]

A leaking toilet could leak at that rate, but I would think you'd notice. But, to eliminate those, shut their supplies off.

My sister worked for a city water department, and over the years, one of her jobs was locating leaks...with the right equipment, she could normally locate it within a foot or so underground as much as 3-4'.

If your soil is sandy, you may never get a wet spot, but it might end up greener.

 

[livemusic]

OK, one of my toilets... there is a valve at the floor beneath the toilet. I close this valve. Flush the toilet, and it fills up again. How is this possible? I have done it several times and it behaves normally! But the valve is closed! I don't get it. How is this happening? Could this be my leak? What's going on here? I also note that I cannot hear water running at the toilet. If it were leaking at the toilet, you'd think I could easily hear a 24 gph flow!

I close the valve at the other toilet and it does NOT fill up with water.

Also, FWIW, this house is built on a slab. The water lines run around the house.

 

[Jadnashua]

Older, multi-turn shutoffs, can often have their washer degrade and literally crack or fall apart, meaning, there's nothing left to create a seal. Usually, it's easier to just replace that valve than try to take it apart and replace the washer as the seat by this time is likely worn as well. WHen replacing, use a 1/4-turn valve. Depending on how it's attached, it often is quick and easy once you shut the main water off (assuming that actually works!). THree general types: solder on (not as easy to replace if you don't have the tools), or a compression, or threaded valve, which are both pretty easy to replace.

Put some food coloring in the tank of each of the toilets. If, without flushing, it either clears up (won't take long if that's the source) or in the meantime, you start to see coloration in the bowl...that toilet is leaking. IF either of those are the source of your leak, it will flush the food coloring out of the tank and through the bowl down the drain fairly quickly. FWIW, some fill valves are fairly quiet. You might notice one bowl is sweating if it is constantly being refilled, but your water temp may not be cold enough to do that this time of year.

Water lines underneath a slab can be harder to find or notice. A good leak detection company should be able to isolate it. NOte, if there's one underneath, there may be more now, or soon. You might try shutting off the supply to the water heater (you'd probably want to turn it off at the same time), and see if the leak stops. Hot water lines tend to wear out faster. Have you noticed less hot water available or the WH running more often? After use, the hot water outlet of the WH should start to cool off (unless you have a hot water recirculation system), and it's constantly hot, your leak is in that portion. Any spots your pets seem to be preferring? They may like the warmth if that's happening.

 

[livemusic]

Both toilets are running a little bit into the bowl. I put dye in and yes, it does show up in the bowl. Although, a combo of both of these do not seem anything close to 24 gph.

To fix this, replace the flapper or what?

As for the toilet that leaks even if the valve is closed, I guess I have to replace the valve, too?

 

[Reach4]

Yes, replace the flappers. Wipe down the place where the flapper seats with a cloth too.

For the valve, better to replace. Quarter turn ball valve.

You are right about the flappers not leaking that much. When you have a leaky flapper, the fill valve turns on periodically.

Why not a whole house valve? If you can isolate the leak to outside, you may be better off replacing the outside pipe rather than trying to search out a spot to patch. For LA, I doubt the pipe has to be buried very deep.

 

[Jadnashua]

If there isn't a frost level, there's still a minimum depth to help prevent mechanical damage. But, driving over a rigid pipe that isn't buried deep enough can damage it, and if you did get a freeze, could split the pipe.

Is there a long enough length of pipe where it comes into the house where you could install a shutoff? If so, I'd shut it off at the meter or wherever outside, install one (use a ball-valve), turn things back on and see if, when that valve is closed, it still leaks. If it does, the leak is from that new valve out to the meter/shutoff. If it's still running, at least you've isolated it to that portion of the pipe after the new valve.

It doesn't sound like the toilets are running fast enough to account for that size of a leak. They'd have to almost be running constantly at a higher rate.

But, how long did it take to literally clear all of the dye from the tank/bowl if you left it that long? If the toilets are older, that could represent as much as 7g, but more likely less. Even one of the newest toilets that only uses say 1.6g, the tank holds probably at least twice that amount to give a bit more pressure/force for the flush. Try to time how long it takes for the water to clear, and you can get a rough idea of the gph flow down the toilets.

 

[livemusic]

The dye coming into the bowl... it's real slow to drift in.

When I just gaze at the inside of the bowl, I can see water running down the face of the bowl into the surface of the water. You have to look close, but you can see it flowing. But unless there is more escaping somewhere that I can't see inside the toilet, I can't see how this is anything close to 24 gph.

The meter advances 1 gal every 2.5 minutes... I get 24 gph.

At one point, I decided to call the city to find out that the meter definitely shows gallons but heck, they close at noon on Friday and it was barely after noon! So, then, we filled up a 5 gal bucket, and the meter did indicate 5 gal.

People bringing up whole house valves, FWIW, I have never heard of this around here. The water line is underground all the way from the meter to the house. The main valve at the meter is all I have ever seen on any house. But I'm no expert, just never heard of it.

EDIT: Over the weekend, the flow increased to 30 gph. I wan't going to mention it so as not to make it more complicated. I had turned the main water valve off last night. I turned it back on this morning and after ten minutes or so of being on, I went and checked flow rate again and it's faster! It is now flowing 1 gal every 1:40, so, that's 36 gph.

I am going to call the city when they open and make sure of this meter.

 

[Jadnashua]

You said at least one of the toilet shutoffs work...turn that off then compare what your usage is. That will give you an idea of how much at least that one is using.

I'd also replace the shutoff that no longer works. With both toilets off, see what your leak is, if it still exists. In the meantime, prior to going out shopping for the new valve, take a close look in the toilet tanks. What is the height of the water relative to the overflow? Depending on the toilet, the water level should be somewhere between 1/2-1" below the top of the overflow tube. IF it's flowing over the top, you need a new fill valve. If it's in the normal position, you need new flapper valves. Both of those are fairly inexpensive and easy to replace. While rarer, once in awhile, the actual overflow tube will get a crack or split in it, releasing water from there, and the valves may be fine.

Solve your known toilet leak issues, then reevaluate.

 

[livemusic]

Follow up... it appears that the leak was limited to the toilets slow dribbles into the bowl. I suspect that the meter is giving false readings of too much flow, as I finally spotted a tiny icon on the LED face, a battery icon, and the icon is 'sliced' in half like you see these icons that means 'battery is low.' I had called the city but they have yet to come by.

Last question... when we fixed the drain pipe for the washing machine drain (the thing that started all of this)... we reoriented the PVC water line to move the outside water hydrant over a few feet. The PVC connections... my helper did all of this and since final hookup, there is a very slow drip at the PVC connections. A drip every several seconds. I put a bowl under there and this drip is equivalent to, like, a pint a day. Would you shove the dirt back in the hole and forget about it or is there any reason to be concerned about this? The water cost of this amount probably isn't even a penny a month. Just wondering if there is any concern at all? I watched the guy do the connections and when he was making it up I expressed my concern that he had not cleaned the PVC good enough... it was muddy. He wiped it off when I threw him a rag but it still was not as clean as what I expected but he claims to be an expert, lol. "No problem, we got primer." I had bought (new) proper PVC primer and glue. He's kind of hard-headed, lol. I will spare you the details of the 'amateurish' job all of this was, lol. I kept my cool but it was pretty unreal. (He did get the job done but the PVC connections had to be done three times because he kept forgetting this and that.)

Thanks for the help in this thread, I don't know much of anything about plumbing.

Don't worry about the continual drip from the new connections or redo it again?

 

[Jadnashua]

Constant leaks tend to draw ants, termites, and roots...so, yes, fix it even if the volume isn't costly, the consequences could be. Worst case, the joint is bad enough so that some time later, it just lets go.