Muddy water

[Alis]

we bought a property that has a bungalow and a cottage supplied by one 80 ft deep well.
water supply was never an issue and the water was always clear.
It was recommended that we update the system since we were renovating the Barn into additional living space. ( another home)
this would give us better pressure to reach the second floor of the barn.

So we went from a 1/2 horse power submersible pump to a 1 horse variable speed pump. Dug a new well 2 ft away from the original well ( why not since everything was being upgraded) new pressure tank, and even replaced the lines to a green stripe one inch to handle the 70 psi. This was all in November 2021.

We decided to ad a filter system and UV light.

6 weeks in, and our pressure was none existent. new filter was covered in mud so we quickly replaced the filter and sediment filter.
we are having to replace the filters every 2 -3 weeks. The 3 rd house isn't even lived in yet.

how do we correct this issue?

 

[Valveman]

New wells need to be developed. You need to pump the well hard for hours or days until it cleans up. Sometimes turning off the pump for 20 minutes or so then restarting will help break the mud up as well. But if you can't pump it out, the well is not drilled properly and may never clean up. The variable speed pump is not an upgrade, but rather a Tar Baby that will need multiple replacements over a short time. I would question the advice on anything from a driller who thinks variable speed pumps are an upgrade? Looks like you have a good start on a money pit that will greatly benefit the driller, but not you.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Alis]

thanks for the feed back. I still have the 1/2 horse pump that was in my well originally. Should I have it put back in?

I still think the new pump is too strong for my 80 ft well. We raised it from 60 to 50 ft . didn't help.

I put a new filter in a week ago because we were losing pressure . By Thursday the water was getting through brown again. Then it cleared up only to be brown again 2 days later. (Still have pressure so far)

The driller will be back this week. it will be interesting to see what the plan is.

 

[Alis]

update: the well guy is back . he hooked up the 1 horse pump to a portable cistern to keep us in water.

the 1/2 horse he put down to the bottom of well to pull up all the mud . To the point that the pump got stuck!
After many attempts we managed to pull it back up. Tied it up so it sits above the bottom by maybe 2-3 feet.
It's been running since Friday morning ( 24 hours)and the water ( that started out horrible) is now fairly clean. still a bit cloudy.
Question, if we go ahead now and hook up the 1/2 horse to the system, will the walls of the well have a layer of muck just like our toilets did?
how long before that passes through and gets cleaned up?

 

[Valveman]

You need to shut the pump off for an hour or so at a time, then restart and let it run. Letting the water level rise and fall this way will help clean the casing and even stir up more mud to get rid of.

 

[Alis]

hello. So we are now in the process of turning on and off the pump that is cleaning up the well pipe.

The suggestion has been made that a holding tank before the pressure tank ( in which the variable pump will live ) may help with water supply to the 3 homes.

Our original 1/2 horse will go back to being the well pump since it does not stir up sediment and it will fill the holding tank. that fills the pressure tank.

thoughts?

we're thinking that we may wait and check the water volume and pressure before getting an additional holding tank.

 

[Alis]

Hello, I'm back with an update and looking for advise again.

Our original 1/2 HP pump went back into the aquifer two years ago. all was working as it should, albeit the pressure is not the best with 3 homes feeding off one pressure tank.

one day I decided to run a soaker hose which is fed from the spigot that is not filtered. Soon I realized that we had no water.
seems the pump crapped out, maybe it didn't like running continuously.

Well guy comes come same day to test the submersible pump and determines it time for a new 1/2 hp.

All is good, until i ran that hose again. the muck clogged the spigot with mud. I cleared it up and determined i will only run that spigot to fill watering cans.


First question, is it possible that the new 1/2 hp is stronger than the 20 year old pump that was in the well , because soon after the new pump went in ( 3 weeks) we started getting brownish water into the house. even after changing the filters that have been lasting 6 months. also we never really lost pressure, which is when i know the filters need changing. Silt passed through.

Coincidence that this happened after i had ran that stupid hose.

Finally the Well has settled down , but its not 100%. still getting a fine layer in my Brita. I think the filters will get changed this week { after 5 weeks only} just to see what improves.

Second question- Can we add a second pressure tank close to the first one , and feed just one of the 3 buildings with it.

Hoping that having two tanks , everybody will get better pressure. Of course i will have separate filters for the new feed.


sorry for the long message, but lots has happened.

 

[Reach4]

1. What is your current configuration? Well pump fills cistern. Cistern feeds pressure pump to supply 3 houses?
2. What diameter is your well.
3. Is your well fully cased, or is it cased only down to rock, and continues deeper?
Those three questions could lead to a suggestion on using a flow inducer on the well pump. If the "rock" is not so solid, a flow inducer would reduce turbulence at the walls of the well bore. If that turbulence is eroding off material, that erosion could slow.

"Second question- Can we add a second pressure tank close to the first one , and feed just one of the 3 buildings with it."
That does not have a simple answer. Yes; you would connect it via a check valve. However the effect may not be what you want. It would reduce pressure fluctuations due to quick load changes. It could do that even better if that tank was in the special building. The check valve would be needed. What advantage were you seeking?

If you have a cistern, you might consider adding a backwashing filter, after the pressure pump, to remove the remaining particles.

I was also thinking that a conical bottom tank in the line could let the mud settle some, and be blown out of the bottom port periodically.

 

[Valveman]

Water comes from the pump, not the pressure tank. Adding another pressure tank will be adding additional demand for the pump to supply and will make the pressure worse. So, I am guessing you are just using the 1/2HP well pump to supply all three houses. The pump you have maybe able to supply better pressure. If the pressure switch can be turned up from 40/60 to 50/70 you will have better pressure but still variable pressure. Even the 40/60 switch system will give much stronger pressure when a Cycle top Valve is added and set to deliver a strong constant 55 PSI. 55 PSI constant from a CSV is much stronger than when the pump is cycling on and off continually between 40 and 60 PSI.

I am sure the soaker hose was the cause of the pump failure, but not because the pump was running continuously. Running continuously is what a pump likes to do and will never hurt a pump. But soaker hoses use very little water and cause the pump to cycle on and off, which is what destroys pumps.

Anytime you change out a pump you stir up the well, and the pump needs to be run to clean up the well before hooking it back to the main lines. Run the pump until the water clears up, the put in some new filters.

 

[Alis]

1. What is your current configuration? Well pump fills cistern. Cistern feeds pressure pump to supply 3 houses?
2. What diameter is your well.
3. Is your well fully cased, or is it cased only down to rock, and continues deeper?
Those three questions could lead to a suggestion on using a flow inducer on the well pump. If the "rock" is not so solid, a flow inducer would reduce turbulence at the walls of the well bore. If that turbulence is eroding off material, that erosion could slow.

"Second question- Can we add a second pressure tank close to the first one , and feed just one of the 3 buildings with it."
That does not have a simple answer. Yes; you would connect it via a check valve. However the effect may not be what you want. It would reduce pressure fluctuations due to quick load changes. It could do that even better if that tank was in the special building. The check valve would be needed. What advantage were you seeking?

If you have a cistern, you might consider adding a backwashing filter, after the pressure pump, to remove the remaining particles.

I was also thinking that a conical bottom tank in the line could let the mud settle some, and be blown out of the bottom port periodically.

hello. thanks for the questions.
1. no cistern on the property. there was talk about putting one in under ground but we do not want more construction. There has to be a better way. Besides, the cistern could potentially hold dirty water and need to be cleaned often.

2. the well casing is 6 or 8 inches. not sure without going out there to measure. it goes down 40 feet. The submersible pump is in the aquifer ( 40 ft of water) at about 65 - 70 feet down. so I'm guessing 10 to 15 ft from the bottom.
3. yes , cased to the rock and continues deeper ( pump)

 

[Alis]

Water comes from the pump, not the pressure tank. Adding another pressure tank will be adding additional demand for the pump to supply and will make the pressure worse. So, I am guessing you are just using the 1/2HP well pump to supply all three houses. The pump you have maybe able to supply better pressure. If the pressure switch can be turned up from 40/60 to 50/70 you will have better pressure but still variable pressure. Even the 40/60 switch system will give much stronger pressure when a Cycle top Valve is added and set to deliver a strong constant 55 PSI. 55 PSI constant from a CSV is much stronger than when the pump is cycling on and off continually between 40 and 60 PSI.

I am sure the soaker hose was the cause of the pump failure, but not because the pump was running continuously. Running continuously is what a pump likes to do and will never hurt a pump. But soaker hoses use very little water and cause the pump to cycle on and off, which is what destroys pumps.

Anytime you change out a pump you stir up the well, and the pump needs to be run to clean up the well before hooking it back to the main lines. Run the pump until the water clears up, the put in some new filters.

View attachment 100590

hello. this is interesting , as that no one has suggested a cycle stop value .
Will it help with supplying constant pressure to the 3 houses?

The well has settled down now. so water is clean.
the pressure is my biggest issue now. We are careful not to shower in the morning when the rental people are getting ready for work. We are retired , so have the flexibility to wait. but not a good selling feature for the next owner.

 

[Valveman]

Even a 1/2HP, 10 GPM pump should supply plenty for 3 houses. Should be able to run 3-4 showers at the same time with all having good pressure. But from the picture it appears you are still using a Variable Speed Drive and pressure transducer? Looks like a Pentek? If so, is that the 1HP in the well or the old 1/2HP?

I would check the pressure when simulating 3-4 showers running. It should take 10 minutes or so to pump the well down, to see if the well can supply that much water. If the well doesn't pump dry after 10-15 minutes, the pump is your problem, not the well. If it is the variable speed pump, it should be maintaining a constant pressure with 1 or 4 showers running. If it has a pressure switch, you need to see if the pump is cycling on and off, or if the pressure just stays low.

 

[Alis]

The new variable speed drive was installed when the 1 hp was installed. The 1 HP was pulling too much mud from our aquifer so we switched back to the old 1/2 hp. it died at the end of May. We replaced it with a new 1/2 hp .
I don't know what a pressure transducer is .

Water supply has never been a problem. the pump sits in the aquifer. We have 40 feet of water beyond the well casing .

There is no way our shower or even kitchen tap has any pressure when someone in the bungalow is having a shower or running a hose.

 

[Valveman]

There is no way our shower or even kitchen tap has any pressure when someone in the bungalow is having a shower or running a hose.

OK then. Watch the pressure gauge while you are simulating the above. Does the pressure go up and down, or just go to a low number and stay there? Low number would mean pump not supplying enough water for some reason. On and off would means we just need to turn up the pressure and make it constant.

 

[Bannerman]

You said the poly pipe is 1" diameter, so the cartridge filters and UV, appear to be feeding 3/4" PEX-'B' piping. PEX 'B' will result in significantly greater flow restriction, compared to the same diameter of copper pipe, or even to the same diameter of PEX 'A'.

With PEX 'B', small diameter fittings are installed internally within each section of pipe, so the restriction through each fitting's smaller ID will be substantial and cumulative. Copper pipe on the other hand, utilizes fittings that are external to the pipe, so the amount of flow restriction will remain low.

Although the ID for PEX 'A' piping is the same as PEX-B, but continues to be smaller than copper, PEX-A fittings are larger in diameter than PEX-A pipe. To insert the larger fittings, PEX 'A', requires each pipe end and plastic ring diameter to be expanded, but this permits each fitting's ID to be almost identical in diameter to the PEX pipe's ID, thereby resulting in significantly lower flow restriction.

Any restriction will be further worsened by the flow restriction resulting from the cartridge filters. What type and micron rating are the current filter cartridges?

 

[Alis]

the filters are 30 micron and 5 micron.
m
My plumber thinks maybe a 1 micron will stop any fine sediment from passing through next time. I may install that in or main building.

 

[Bannerman]

A 1 micron, and likely the 5 micron filter will be restricting flow, thereby resulting in pressure loss. The 30 micron in itself will cause less flow restriction, except when it becomes caked with debris. Suggest temporarily bypassing the filters to determine the change of increase in flow to fixtures.

It remains unclear if your well was actually developed as Valveman mentioned. To most efficiently develop a well, the water exiting the pump should have the least restriction possible so as to maximize flow velocity. A high flow velocity will more effectively allow the pump to eliminate debris from the well, so debris will be less likely to enter your plumbing system when the flow rate is lower under normal use. To achieve this, some temporarily pull-up the pump and drop pipe so the pit-less adaptor connection is above the top of the well casing, thereby allowing the pump to discharge directly into the yard surrounding the well. Once the discharge is running consistently clear of sediment and debris, which may take hours or even days, then the pump can again be lowered and connected to the supply piping to the house(s).

If filtration continues to be needed, to achieve lower flow restriction, especially as the system is supplying 3-buildings, a backwashing filtration system containing a large quantity of filtration media would be optimal. This system would be similar in appearance to a water softener, and will normally contain 1.5 cubic feet or more of media such as Katalox Light or other suitable media contained within a 10" X 54" (1.5 ft3) or 12" X 52" (2.0 ft3) media tank.

Without fully developing the well, substantial debris is likely to continue. To reduce the potential for cartridge filters to continue to be caked with debris, a backwashing coarse sediment filter such as the Hydra by Atlas Filtri could be utilized as the 1st stage after the pressure tank. When equipped with an optional automatic purge kit, the filter screen can then be automatically backwashed frequently without you needing to do so.

 

[Reach4]

I am using a 1 micron PENTEK-WP1BB20P polypropylene wound WP1BB20P that is going a lot longer than anticipated. There is backpressure, that I have not bothered to measure. I don't think it would be so good for 3 occupied buildings. That could be worth a try into maybe 1 house, and see if that makes the water nice and does not clog to quickly. It is good to be able to measure the pressure on both sides. The pressure gauge at the pressure switch could be one for your first filter. But a boiler drain between filters could let you mount GHT pressure gauges to measure pressures.

It is overkill for me, and I expect to use a DGD-5005-20 polypropylene spun 50-5 dual gradient filter as my finest filter.

 

[Valveman]

the filters are 30 micron and 5 micron.
m
My plumber thinks maybe a 1 micron will stop any fine sediment from passing through next time. I may install that in or main building.

I completely missed the filter comment. Yes, filters can cause a lot of restriction as was said. When you figure out how much pressure you are loosing across the filters you can turn up the pressure switch to make up for it. And again, filters or not, the pressure is stronger when it is constant 50 or 60 than when the pump is cycling on and off between 40/60, 50/70, or whatever the switch is set to do.