Help with diagnosing an issue

[Qutrit]

I have a 1ft^3 tank softener with an incorporated carbon filter. Every time that the softener regeneratres I get salty water for one day, then the saltines goes away. the water produced is soft (total hardness zero) but the TDS peaks to about a but more than 1000ppm the first day after regeneration. the second or third day goes down to 373ppm which is the usual for my water when there's no salty taste.

It is a dry brine tank (only adds water during regeneration cycle) and the cycle ends with backwash and then rapid rinse. increasing rapid rinse time seems to have a marginal effect and increasing backwash times does not do anything noticeable. I don't want to increase backwash time any more than 10 min for fear of draining the carbon media. I have gone up to 16 min rapid rinse.

For extra info, the refresh cycle is Tank refill 19 min, pause 120 min, draw 60 min, backwash, rapid rinse. I use NaCl as the brine salt. my controller is a programmable Fleck 5800 XRT with touchscreen

If I force an extra rapid rinse during the first day the extra saltiness disappears and TDS returns to around 400ppm. Is it worth trying to increase rapid rinse time even more?

Any idea what could be wrong with it? and how to try to solve it? thanks a lot in advance

 

[Reach4]

I would not increase the rapid rinse, but would instead increase brine draw. Once the brine has been drawn, the air check valve closes. The rest of the cycle is slow rinse, where the water moves in an orderly (laminar) fashion, and after the bolus of brine has moved though, the resin is rinsed.

I don't know how to program the XRT. Do you know what injector you have? Do you know the BLFC value?

I am wondering if 19 minutes of brine fill is too much. I wonder if 60 minutes is enough for brine draw.

If you cannot identify the injector, you could turn the brine draw to 120 minutes. Do a regen, and starting at 60 minutes into the BD cycle, read the TDS on the drain water. Note how far into the BD the TDS goes under 400, and use that time, plus a bit, for BD. Since you are set up for brine first, this sounds like a lot of waiting around. Maybe set an alarm on your phone to remember to check things out 3 hours after you start the immediate regen.

Alternatively, try brine draw 100 minutes, and based on what you find, move up or down from there.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Qutrit]

Thanks for the reply. The injector says on it .12 GPM and 37 lbs salt min. I have not touched brine draw so maybe that would help with the issue. I am curious, why do you think the rapid rinse time won't help anymore to solve the issue? isn't it also supposed to remove the excess brine from the resin bed?

 

[Reach4]

Rapid rinse makes turbulent flow. The main purpose of rapid rinse is to pack down the resin. Stirs up the liquid more, rather than having the water shaken up. Longer rapid rinse might help, but it will be less water-efficient than longer BD.

You are using just a tad more than 7 lbs of salt per cubic ft of resin -- a good number

The injector should say something like #00. If you had #00, that injector would be violet, and 60 minutes BD would probably be enough. So you might have #000.

 

[Bannerman]

The injector says on it .12 GPM and 37 lbs salt min.

Your BLFC (brine line flow control) flow rate is 0.125 GPM. As each US gallon entering the brine tank will cause 3 lbs salt to become dissolved, then each 1-minute change to the Brine Fill setting, will alter the salt amount 0.375 lbs.

19 minutes Brine Fill X 0.125 = 2.375 gallons X 3lb/gal = 7.125 lbs salt

Alternate calculation: 19 min BF X 0.375 lbs/min = 7.125 lbs

There is a possibility the actual installed BLFC flow restrictor does not match the label. A simple method to test the refill flow rate will be to disconnect the brine fitting at the top of the Brine tank, manually advance the controller to Brine Fill, and use a graduated container to measure the amount of water that exits from the open brine tube in 60-seconds.

What is the current Capacity setting? 7 lbs salt will be suitable to regenerate ~22,500 grains of useable capacity in 1 ft3 resin.

why do you think the rapid rinse time won't help anymore to solve the issue? isn't it also supposed to remove the excess brine from the resin bed?

No. The Brine Draw setting is actually controlling 2 individual cycles, Brine Draw & Slow Rinse.

Once the brine has been transferred from the brine tank to the media tank, the air check valve at the bottom of the brine tank will close to prevent air from being drawn in during the Slow Rinse cycle, which will continue to push the brine through the resin bed, and will rinse the resin of calcium, magnesium, chloride and excess sodium.

With a 60-minute BD setting, the brine should be transferred to the media tank in approx. 15-minutes, thereby leaving the remining ~ 45-minutes for Slow Rinse.

Is your control valve programmed for Downflow or Upflow regeneration?

have a 1ft^3 tank softener with an incorporated carbon filter.

What is the dimensions for your media tank? A 1 ft3 softener will typically utilize a 9"X48" media tank, but that size would be too small for 1 ft3 resin + ? quantity of carbon media.

Is your media tank an Enpress Vortech brand tank? Vortech has a mid-screen option, which allows two types of media to be installed within the same tank, but keeps them separated in the correct order of flow, as should occur when both carbon and resin share the same tank.

Tank refill 19 min, pause 120 min, draw 60 min, backwash, rapid rinse. I use NaCl as the brine salt.

Since you are using Sodium Chloride as the regenerant, why have you chosen to program Brine Fill First?

BFF is normally recommended when Potassium Chloride is the chosen regenerant, particularly when the brine tank is located in an area exposed to variances in temperature.

While there is no harm in utilizing BFF with Sodium Chloride, your setting results in the Regeneration Cycle becoming lengthened and delayed by 139 minutes (19 BF + 120 Pause), with no real benefit gained.

 

[Rebed Kid]

That is a lot of good information. I would also check to be sure the drain-line isn't pinched or kinked anywhere..

 

[Qutrit]

Thank you very much! This is helpful and educational. Here some answers to your questions and thank you in advance for any help or further insight

There is a possibility the actual installed BLFC flow restrictor does not match the label. A simple method to test the refill flow rate will be to disconnect the brine fitting at the top of the Brine tank, manually advance the controller to Brine Fill, and use a graduated container to measure the amount of water that exits from the open brine tube in 60-seconds.

I ran a test regeneration again increasing the draw time to 90 min and the problem persisted but much improved. The peak TDS after regeneration now was around 600 and disappeared after about 10 gallons of water usage. I will run another test with 100 min and see if there is more improvement,

I checked that the brine is completely gone form the brine tank in about 15 min or so to discard any clogged injector issues so this rate seems accurate.

What is the current Capacity setting? 7 lbs salt will be suitable to regenerate ~22,500 grains of useable capacity in 1 ft3 resin.

It says on the controller that it is 21250

Is your control valve programmed for Downflow or Upflow regeneration?

It is in upflow configuration. When accessing the controller the following options are possible.

1-variable refill/brining
2-custom downflow
3-custom upflow
4-downflow
5-upflow
6-downflow 2xbackwash

in my case option 1 is selected, this is what the manual says about the different options

can I change this / is It safe to change just to upflow instead of variable refill so that I always have brine in the tank, hence saving 120 min of the refresh process?

What is the dimensions for your media tank? A 1 ft3 softener will typically utilize a 9"X48" media tank, but that size would be too small for 1 ft3 resin + ? quantity of carbon media.

Is your media tank an Enpress Vortech brand tank? Vortech has a mid-screen option, which allows two types of media to be installed within the same tank, but keeps them separated in the correct order of flow, as should occur when both carbon and resin share the same tank.

The tank is indeed a cylinder measuring 9'' x 48'' sharp

I am not sure about the brand and model as the installer only left their own branding on it, but I have checked the pictures online and indeed it does looks an awful lot like an Enpress Vortech tank. How does this affect my configuration parameters and the issues I'm seeing? AM I over brinning it because of the Carbon filter?

Since you are using Sodium Chloride as the regenerant, why have you chosen to program Brine Fill First?

It was installed that way and the installer mentioned that it helps prevent salt bridges and mushing, reducing needs for maintenance of the tank. Is this not accurate? My regeneration cycle is indeed very long and wouldn't mind changing this, but I was not knowledgeable enough to tell the pros and the cons and what the new programmable parameters would be if this is changed. If it is as I mentioned above I will be more than happy to try it since my regeneration cycle is already long enough

 

[Qutrit]

Just an update after further testing: I managed to get a normal TDS reading after regeneration by setting the draw phase to last 105 min. This is a big difference from the 60 min that the installer set it up for. I wonder if something is wrong (perhaps the air check valve not fully closing and letting air in during the slow rinse? is that possible?) with it or if it may just be the carbon filter that takes longer to "pass" the brine since I assume it also goes through it after going to the resin bed in the upflow configuration that I have. I defer to the experts on this forum for an opinion.

 

[Reach4]

The tank is indeed a cylinder measuring 9'' x 48'' sharp

I wonder if something is wrong (perhaps the air check valve not fully closing and letting air in during the slow rinse? is that possible?)

You would be getting air in the water in that case.

One thing to check is how long does it take for the brine to be sucked down as far as it would go. Without the carbon, the common target is to make BD 4x that, although 3.5x is a good target too.

Commonly for a downflow softener, an injector is chosen to cause about 15 minutes for the brine to be drawn, and then 60 minute BF would be the common choice.

or if it may just be the carbon filter that takes longer to "pass" the brine since I assume it also goes through it after going to the resin bed in the upflow configuration that I have.

Unless I missed it, this is the first time you have mentioned upflow. With upflow, it is important to have a small injector, such as #000. That slows the drawing of brine, and pretty much always calls for a longer BD cycle. This explains things, although the carbon might add a bit to that BD time need too.

I expect that it takes more like 25 or 30 minutes for your brine to be sucked out.

 

[Bannerman]

I checked that the brine is completely gone form the brine tank in about 15 min or so

Since the brine is transferred to the media tank in ~15-minutes, a 60-minute Brine cycle should be sufficient to allow thorough resin rinsing.

Fleck suggests as a potential remedy for salty service water (soft water to fixtures), to clean the injector, injector screen, and brine line screen. (As shown in the video below)

I have checked the pictures online and indeed it does looks an awful lot like an Enpress Vortech tank.

All media tanks appear fairly similar, Vortech included. Since a Vortech would be a premium upgrade, I would expect it to be specifically listed on the purchase invoice. Even if it turns out to be an actual Vortech brand tank, that will not signify a mid-plate separator is installed, unless specifically indicated on the invoice.

It is in upflow configuration. When accessing the controller the following options are possible.

Option 1 is applicable to both upflow and downflow configurations.

In addition to settings modifications, Upflow requires a different piston than downflow, which I understand, the upflow piston will be identified with a Blue dot vs a White dot for downflow. Upflow also requires an alternate injector position compared to Downflow.

If you remove the injector to inspect and clean it as suggested above, take note of the position of the injector compared to the plug which will be inserted in the opposite brine draw position injector port.

The reason for asking about upflow vs downflow is, upflow will typically a lower flow rate injector, which will often cause the brine transfer to require longer than 15-minutes, thereby requiring an increased brine draw duration exceeding 60-minutes.

 

[Qutrit]

Thank you both for your help with this. In the invoice and in the brochure of the product (that can be found here https://crystalclearwater.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/ULTRA_2022.pdf) it explicitly states upflow configuration as a feature thus I'm pretty sure it is the case. That said the installers did configure it for 60 min draw phase.

I can try to measure more accurately how long it takes to empty the brine tank next time it regenerates. It is difficult to see accurately by inspection because of the salt in the tank. Perhaps I measured it inaccurately.

the 105 min draw phase definitely addressed the salty water after regeneration although there may be other issues, but I think I need to first make sure that the brine tank is emptied in 15 min first.

 

[Reach4]

the 105 min draw phase definitely addressed the salty water after regeneration although there may be other issues, but I think I need to first make sure that the brine tank is emptied in 15 min first.

To be clear, with upflow, longer is better.

You might take a look at the injector color. That will identify what to expect.

If you remove the injector to inspect and clean it as suggested above, take note of the position of the injector compared to the plug which will be inserted in the opposite brine draw position injector port.

Did you look in the FLECK 5800 XTR2 service manual to see how to see the injector and the plug? It is on page 19 in version C. The injector, plug, and screen are under the injector cap. I think you could see the injector color and position without pulling the injector.

If I do pull anything with a seal/o-ring, I lightly lube the seal with silicone grease when I put it back. For non-moving seals, I use Molykote/Dow 111. https://www.danco.com/product/0-5-oz-silicone-faucet-grease/ Danco 88693 is more likely to be available locally, and that small container will still last a long time.

If lubing a moving seal, such as a piston, Chemplex 862 or Dow No.7 can. Dow Release compound is better. These can also be used for static seals. It is lower viscosity than 111. I have both because I got my 111 before the need for lower viscosity for pistons was identified.

 

[Stephen Walker]

I had your same problem OP. the issue was the injector was nearly completely clogged. Cleaning the screen and injector solved the problem for me. This was when I bought the house and the prev owner had no filter before the water softener.

edit: your injector's hole should be able to take about a toothpick through it. Not a pinhole. I added this because at first glance mine looked fine, but it was clogged.

 

[Qutrit]

A quick update to this thread: I opened and cleaned the screen and the injector. My injector is violet/purple, so a #00, which should have worked well with a 60 min BW as per @Bannerman 's response above. I have not tested the softener yet after regeneration (after cleaning injector and injector screen) but I will check TDS and report back