Fresh water Drain to Waste Line?

[Jastewart82]

I am replacing my main water valve with a valve that has hose drain in hopes of automatically draining my water system to sewer when I turn off water supply at this valve.

My question is, can I run drain line to a vertical 1-1/2" cleanout under my kitchen sink and what would this setup look like?

Water valve is in crawl space up in floor joists. Cleanout is about 1' below valve and horizontal sewer line is about another foot below cleanout.

My concern is that when the water valve is closed, the sewer would be directly connected to the house plumbing (which would be drained) allowing gasses to creep into the lines. Would I need both a p trap and an airgap? Freezing is a concern, so I would prefer not to have water sitting in line or p trap, but not a deal breaker.

Thanks in advance

 

[Reach4]

Not permitted to make such a connection. Plus, if the path is uphill, you would need a pump.

This need will be very occasional vs regular. Instead drain the water to a bucket, and use a small utility pump and garden hose to pump water where you want it to go.

One more flaw. I expect that drain port is pressurized, even when the valve is in the normal open/on position.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[John Gayewski]

Agree drain into a bucket. Unless your house is a mansion you'd have less than 1 bucket of water in your piping and it won't all be able to drain without blowing air into it.

 

[Jastewart82]

Not permitted to make such a connection. Plus, if the path is uphill, you would need a pump.

This need will be very occasional vs regular. Instead drain the water to a bucket, and use a small utility pump and garden hose to pump water where you want it to go.

One more flaw. I expect that drain port is pressurized, even when the valve is in the normal open/on position.

This is the valve: https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=40613W

I believe that the drain port is off when main valve is in open position even with the small valve open.

The path is downhill. The drain cleanout I want to attach to is about 1' below the water valve, so would flow with gravity. It is difficult to get to the area to empty the bucket manually. I am using an electric valve opener to control the valve, so I would not have to crawl down there.

My thinking was that if I added a trap and air gap it would be similar to a laundry, but admit It seems a little dodgy...

 

[wwhitney]

This is the valve: https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=40613W

I believe that the drain port is off when main valve is in open position even with the small valve open.

Yes, that's correct. A picture of the valve is below. The main ball has a tee bore in it, which is illustrated on the handle.

As pictured, the main valve connects the left straight port to the side port, with the right port shut off. The handle can turn only 90 degrees, to the configuration with the bottom port shut off and the two straight ports connected.

The handle is reversible, which lets you configure it so the two available settings are the other two settings. I.e. the one where all 3 ports are connected, and the one where the side port is connected to the right straight port. Obviously not something you'd want to do for your application.

You can't connect the drain port directly to a cleanout, but I don't see why you couldn't add a trap, a standpipe, and an airgap, and attach a garden hose from the drain port to the airgap.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

Doing this would be rare. Run a hose when it happens into the opened up cleanout. Then close the cleanout.

Adding a trap and a trap filler would be so overkill for something that might be used twice.

 

[John Gayewski]

Yes that valve is made for a garden hose to attach. No reason to run it to a drain.

 

[wwhitney]

Adding a trap and a trap filler

Good point, forgot about the trap filler, that would be trouble.

would be so overkill for something that might be used twice.

I got the impression the OP is going to be doing this once a year to winterize a house.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jastewart82]

I have a Guardian leak detector with sensors around the house and a device that turns valve off the water if a leak is detected. The problem with this that there is so much water/pressure in the line that if there were a leak I would still have several gallons of water escape. My thinking was that if I installed this valve, I would solve the problem of having to go into crawl space (not pleasant) to turn on/off valve when I need to and also minimize the amount of damage in event of a leak. This would probably be used about 5 times per year due to testing, false alarms, etc..

The more I think about it, I am very hesitant to add a trap under the house. My concern is that if there was ever a blockage it would spew sewage into the crawl space undetected.

I was hoping for some sort of 1 way valve that would flow with minimal water pressure and not let sewer gasses enter the line when the 3 way water valve is closed (House water disconnected from city water, house water connected to sewer). This will not be inspected, so open to all suggestions.

I am also open to either sending water outside through hose or maybe dig a small pit with gravel in crawl to let water seep into ground without creating moisture issues in crawl if that is the best solution.

 

[wwhitney]

if there were a leak I would still have several gallons of water escape. . . . 5 times per year due to testing, false alarms, etc..

Seems like the testing, false alarms, etc would not actually let the several gallons of water escape. So it would only be in the event of an actual leak that automatically draining your system would be helpful.

IMO, since the job of the automatic valve is to reduce the chance of a catastrophic leak, i.e. hundreds of gallons or more, it's still a win if you get a couple gallons of water from a leak. Trying to further reduce the leak volume via a scheme such as you propose does not seem like a winning proposition.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jeff H Young]

if your looking for a completely automated system in which water will shut off and drain all water pipes , it can be done what's worth it to one person a waste to another a 200K dollar kitchen isn't worth it to many or a car that cost that much.
My brother and I billed thousands to move a washer and dryer 2 inches in a working but tight laundry room owner was very happy

 

[Reach4]

How about running a line to dump the water outside above ground?

 

[Jastewart82]

2 gallons of water can do a lot of damage if allowed to seep into and under hardwood floors. Obviosly, better than thousands of gallons, but still not a win for me. The parts to make self draining will be around $100. The satisfaction of coming home to a broken washing machine line, being alerted, and only seeing a cup of water leaked out is definitely worth it.

Thanks everyone for the input!

 

[Reach4]

2 gallons of water can do a lot of damage if allowed to seep into and under hardwood floors. Obviosly, better than thousands of gallons, but still not a win for me. The parts to make self draining will be around $100. The satisfaction of coming home to a broken washing machine line, being alerted, and only seeing a cup of water leaked out is definitely worth it.

Your proposed system in in the crawlspace, and is not proposed to be automatic, if I understood correctly. So the water spilled would only be in the crawl space, but if your vapor barrier is on the bottom of the crawl space rather than the top of the crawlspace, you could make the case that the water vapor could adversely affect your wood floors.

You are proposing, I think, to make an illegal connection between your city water and your sewer system to avoid opening a cleanout plug and running a hose during your annual trip to the crawl space to drain out the water, right?

Or have your plans moved to a different alternative?

 

[Jastewart82]

Yes, that's correct. A picture of the valve is below. The main ball has a tee bore in it, which is illustrated on the handle.

As pictured, the main valve connects the left straight port to the side port, with the right port shut off. The handle can turn only 90 degrees, to the configuration with the bottom port shut off and the two straight ports connected.

The handle is reversible, which lets you configure it so the two available settings are the other two settings. I.e. the one where all 3 ports are connected, and the one where the side port is connected to the right straight port. Obviously not something you'd want to do for your application.

You can't connect the drain port directly to a cleanout, but I don't see why you couldn't add a trap, a standpipe, and an airgap, and attach a garden hose from the drain port to the airgap.

Cheers, Wayne



View attachment 81248

So I finally got around to intalling this valve and it does not seem to be working as I thought and I think how you described (if I interpreted correctly). There seems to be no setting where the two straight ports are connected without the side port also being connected. Am I missing something?

 

[wwhitney]

The ball valve has 4 positions, but the handle will only let you access two at a time. Flipping the handle around (remove the nut temporarily) will let you access the other two positions. So if the ports are A, B, C, at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, and 6'o'clock respectively, then the picture above shows the handle in the A-B state, and it should be able to turn to the A-C state. If you flip the handle around, the two options will be B-C or A-B-C.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jastewart82]

The ball valve has 4 positions, but the handle will only let you access two at a time. Flipping the handle around (remove the nut temporarily) will let you access the other two positions. So if the ports are A, B, C, at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, and 6'o'clock respectively, then the picture above shows the handle in the A-B state, and it should be able to turn to the A-C state. If you flip the handle around, the two options will be B-C or A-B-C.

Cheers, Wayne

I took the handle off to make sure I was able to access all 4 states. I found the AB state where the hose would drain the water from the house with supply off. I would think rotating 90d counterclockwise would give AC, but it pressurizes the hose and house like ABC state. All positions except AB pressurize the hose.

 

[wwhitney]

I took the handle off to make sure I was able to access all 4 states. I found the AB state where the hose would drain the water from the house with supply off. I would think rotating 90d counterclockwise would give AC, but it pressurizes the hose and house like ABC state. All positions except AB pressurize the hose.

I take it the valve is already installed, so you aren't able to look into the ports as you rotate the ball? With 3 ports as shown, and a tee-bored ball, it has to function the way I described. Unless the body has a "D" port that is connected through a side channel to the B side port? I don't believe it does.

Below is an excerpt from Webstone's catalog. It doesn't exactly clarify when the side port is pressurized or not, but the connectivity should be as the label indicates (and they provide a replacement decal if you reverse the handle).

I'm out of information, the only thing I could suggest is contacting Webstone.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jastewart82]

I take it the valve is already installed, so you aren't able to look into the ports as you rotate the ball? With 3 ports as shown, and a tee-bored ball, it has to function the way I described. Unless the body has a "D" port that is connected through a side channel to the B side port? I don't believe it does.

Below is an excerpt from Webstone's catalog. It doesn't exactly clarify when the side port is pressurized or not, but the connectivity should be as the label indicates (and they provide a replacement decal if you reverse the handle).

I'm out of information, the only thing I could suggest is contacting Webstone.

Cheers, Wayne


View attachment 82249

Ok, thanks for your help.

 

[wwhitney]

So just to double check, when you found the AB state, you tried 90 degrees from that, both ways, and both of those states were ABC states? The drain port was getting full flow in both states, it wasn't just a small squirt of water when you open the drain valve, from the residual pressurization of the space between the ball valves?

Cheers, Wayne