Excessive salt usage?

[invernite]

I have a Fleck 5812SXT that I installed in our home about 3 years ago. I am not at all an expert in water softeners and have unfortunately forgotten many of the details I had learned when selecting the softener a few years ago. We have a 3 CF softener and I feel like our salt usage is very high (at least based on feedback from friends in the area about their usage). I'm putting about 280lbs of salt in the brine tank every 2-3 months. Our water usage averages about 225 gal/day (for a family of 6). This number is from the utility bills and includes water used in regeneration cycles. Our water hardness is 31 gpg and we have 0.25-0.5 ppm iron. When I add salt I typically put about 200 lbs of regular salt and 80 lbs of iron out salt.

I'm hoping someone may either be able to confirm that our salt usage is normal, or provide me with the programming settings to correct the excessive salt usage. Our programming settings are as follows:

df gal
vt 5812
rf dF1b
ct fd
c 72
h 40
rs set to cr
do 28
bw 8
bd 60
rr 6
bf 32
fm t1.2
re off
vr off

I'm not sure what our BLFC is and was unable to locate a sticker or other marking on the valve. Is there another way to find out? I'm not sure if our salt use is primarily impacted by the number of regenerations, length of brine draw, or something else. Or perhaps it's not a programming issue? Please let me know what other information would be useful to provide guidance.

Thank you!

 

[Reach4]

I'm not sure what our BLFC is and was unable to locate a sticker or other marking on the valve. Is there another way to find out?

Yes.

If you want to check the BLFC, it is just where the drain line comes out. There will be a molded-in number opposite the F. The direction of the button/washer matters, so don't reverse it. Tell us the number. With a 14 inch diameter tank, I expect a 0.25 gpm BLFC, so I would expect a 25 molded in.


The BLFC is the same as for the 7000, and https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/programming-a-fleck-7000-and-sanitizing.47960/ #2 shows the numbering on the BLFC. Identify if yours has 123, 25, or 50 molded onto the rubber. Then put it back together the same way.

Your numbers are set up presuming you have a 0.25 (molded-in 25) BLFC..

While checking things, also check the color of the injector. I expect blue or yellow or maybe even green. If white, you need to change the BD time.

Also, note there is a count-down counter on the display that alternates with time. If that number drops faster than the water meter says you are using water, there are things to check. There are also diagnostics that will tell you how much water the softener thinks you have consumed since the last regeneration.

I expect you to regen about once per week using about 24 lbs of salt each time. That seems in line with your experience.

The neighbors who you compare against have softer water probably, or they use less water

You could change settings to use less salt -- maybe 6 lbs/cuft instead of 8 lbs/cuft. The water in your house would have more residual hardness, but you may find it quite acceptable. Many do.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

not sure what our BLFC is and was unable to locate a sticker or other marking on the valve.

A simple method to determine the BLFC flow rate is to disconnect the brine line at the top of the brine tank, advance the controller to Brine Fill and measure the amount of water that exits the open brine line in 30 or 60 seconds.

 

[invernite]

Thanks for the quick feedback. I see the tiny molded-in numbers but don't know how to interpret them. I've uploaded a picture of what I see. If I understand it correctly, I have a 50?

I removed the injector and see that it is yellow (see other attached pic).

I have not paid attention to the water usage shown on the valve and compared that to the water meter. I'll certainly give that a shot to see if there are any differences.

Based on the 50 BLFC, what are the appropriate next steps?

 

[Reach4]

Based on the 50 BLFC, what are the appropriate next steps?

Cut BF from 32 to 16.

The injector, I think, is
#2 Injector - Blue

You might be fine with BD=60, but maybe up that to 70.

Have you noticed a salt taste in the water the day after regen? I would think you would have. The effect is tasted more quickly in the cold. You were using up to twice as much salt as you should have. However the safety float may have limited this.

 

[Bannerman]

Our water usage averages about 225 gal/day (for a family of 6). This number is from the utility bills

Our water hardness is 31 gpg and we have 0.25-0.5 ppm iron.

As your water source is municipal, it will be chlorinated. Chlorine will oxidize Ferrous (dissolved) iron, converting it to Ferric (solid - rust) iron which will usually precipitate out in the distribution system and will not consume softener capacity so no compensation will be needed for iron.

Hardness should be tested at your location. While I first anticipated your water source would be Lake Michigan, the amount of hardness and iron you stated would be unusual in lake water. Municipal water is often obtained from multiple sources and if the 31 gpg was stated by your utility, that will typically be an average hardness from all water sources so depending on your proximity to each water source, your actual hardness could be higher or lower than average.

 

[invernite]

Cut BF from 32 to 16.

The injector, I think, is
#2 Injector - Blue

You might be fine with BD=60, but maybe up that to 70.

I infer from your feedback that the BLFC flow rate is for brine filling only and not for brine draw (since you're not also suggesting halving BD to 30) - is that right? What governs the brine draw rate? Also, with a BF of 32 and a BLFC rate twice what was expected (50 vs. 25), I assume this means that the brine tank was filled to twice the needed volume? We've never had an overflow issue - is this because a safety float redirects the extra water straight to the drain?

On the injector color - when I first popped off the cap, I thought it was blue too since I saw the baby blue color plastic. I thought I'd double-check by pulling it out, and I'm glad I did because the part that is "deeper" inside the valve is yellow. Since it's both blue and yellow I don't know which to classify it as!

Have you noticed a salt taste in the water the day after regen? I would think you would have. The effect is tasted more quickly in the cold. You were using up to twice as much salt as you should have. However the safety float may have limited this.

I haven't noticed a particular difference in the taste of the water the day after regen. Perhaps my taste buds aren't refined enough to tell, which is great because neither my wife nor I have great culinary skills The water we drink goes through an RO system so perhaps that is eliminating extra salt/taste of salt? Of course, I haven't noticed the water to be any more salty the day after a regen when brushing with regular tap water either.

Is the thinking that since the brine fill is twice what it needs to be, twice as much water is flowing through the salt tank and so dissolving salt twice as fast as needed?

The system went through a regen last night. I'll change the programming to set BD to 70 and BF to 16. I also just added salt yesterday so making the change now will allow us to see long the salt lasts as a result of these changes.

 

[invernite]

As your water source is municipal, it will be chlorinated. Chlorine will oxidize Ferrous (dissolved) iron, converting it to Ferric (solid - rust) iron which will usually precipitate out in the distribution system and will not consume softener capacity so no compensation will be needed for iron.

So based on that, should I set H to 31 rather than the 40 it is at now? Also, isn't lake water chlorinated too to disinfect it? I'm not clear which scenarios would require compensation from the softener. Since a water test reported 0.25-0.5 ppm iron, does that mean that some of the iron in our water is still not oxidized out by the chlorine?

Hardness should be tested at your location. While I first anticipated your water source would be Lake Michigan, the amount of hardness and iron you stated would be unusual in lake water. Municipal water is often obtained from multiple sources and if the 31 gpg was stated by your utility, that will typically be an average hardness from all water sources so depending on your proximity to each water source, your actual hardness could be higher or lower than average.

You're correct - we are not on Lake Michigan water. We're just outside that area and get our water from a community/municipal well. Hardness was tested at our location about three years ago before we put in the softener. At the time it was 31 gpg hardness and 0.25-0.5 ppm iron. Sounds like another water test may be a good idea - perhaps two: one for the softened water to see what it looks like post-treatment, and another for water that bypasses the softener?

 

[Reach4]

I infer from your feedback that the BLFC flow rate is for brine filling only and not for brine draw (since you're not also suggesting halving BD to 30) - is that right?

Yes.

What governs the brine draw rate? Also, with a BF of 32 and a BLFC rate twice what was expected (50 vs. 25), I assume this means that the brine tank was filled to twice the needed volume? We've never had an overflow issue - is this because a safety float redirects the extra water straight to the drain?

Injector determines draw rate. See the graphs in the service manual. I think they are all half yellow, so you want to look at the blue.

The safety float blocks the incoming water from coming in if the water level gets high enough.

Your comments about showing iron in the water test of your own tap water from the house makes sense. Chlorine should have removed that, and you should check that there is chlorine present by the time the water gets to your house. On the other hand, if the test data is from the water company, their test is probably before chlorination.

Besides iron compensation, there is high hardness compensation.
terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-9100-sxt-programming-settings.60651/

 

[Bannerman]

Since a water test reported 0.25-0.5 ppm iron, does that mean that some of the iron in our water is still not oxidized out by the chlorine?

Is this data from a water quality report supplied by the water provider, or did you obtain your own test?

Municipal water including lake water, is chlorinated for bacterial disinfection purposes. A further benefit to chlorine is an ability to oxidize iron and other elements, converting them from a dissolved state to solids which are then easily removed by precipitation or sediment filtration.

To ensure the water remains bacteria free throughout the entire distribution system, there will be sufficient chlorine added to continue to maintain a specific chlorine residual throughout the entire distribution system. Chlorine looses strength over time and both neutralizing bacteria and oxidizing iron will consume chlorine strength so unless your home is located very close by to the water source, if there is a measureable chlorine residual remaining in the water entering your home, that will normally signify there will be no further bacteria or dissolved (ferrous) iron remaining.

 

[invernite]

Thank you Reach4 and Bannerman for your replies - they're very helpful!

Besides iron compensation, there is high hardness compensation.
terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-9100-sxt-programming-settings.60651/

I read through this post and subsequent comments and gathered that I should be using compensated hardness of 1.2 for my 31 gpg hardness. So that suggests H=36 (before any adjustments for iron).

Is this data from a water quality report supplied by the water provider, or did you obtain your own test?

The 31 gpg hardness and 0.25-0.5 ppm iron are from a test that a local water treatment company representative performed in the home about three years ago, before we decided to put our own softener system in place.

Municipal water including lake water, is chlorinated for bacterial disinfection purposes. A further benefit to chlorine is an ability to oxidize iron and other elements, converting them from a dissolved state to solids which are then easily removed by precipitation or sediment filtration.

To ensure the water remains bacteria free throughout the entire distribution system, there will be sufficient chlorine added to continue to maintain a specific chlorine residual throughout the entire distribution system. Chlorine looses strength over time and both neutralizing bacteria and oxidizing iron will consume chlorine strength so unless your home is located very close by to the water source, if there is a measurable chlorine residual remaining in the water entering your home, that will normally signify there will be no further bacteria or dissolved (ferrous) iron remaining.

So since the water test showed 0.25-0.5 ppm iron, can I infer that not all of the iron was converted to solid because the chlorine was most likely used up (for lack of a better word) on it's way to our house, and there is potentially some dissolved (ferrous) iron (and possible bacteria!) remaining in the water? Can I generalize this as: since most water (regardless of source) is treated with chlorine, the only homes that should make iron compensation in their softeners are those homes that show residual iron on their water test (which likely occurs because the chlorine has been consumed)?

Based on the insight I've gained from you guys so far, I'm considering the following changes:

Change BD from 60 to 70
Change BF from 32 to 16
Change H from 40 to 36 (unless further adjustments are needed for iron?)

Also, I'm thinking about moving to 6 lbs/cuft salt instead of 8 lbs/cuft, as Reach4 suggested. My wife has previously asked if our water can be "less soft", and I always thought "no, it's either hard or soft". Sounds like by adjusting the salt use we may be able to have some residual hardness.

Based on the link Reach4 sent (terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-9100-sxt-programming-settings.60651), I think the following math holds for me to move to 6 lbs/cuft instead of 8:

C = 60, since 6 lbs/cuft salt would yield 20,000 grains and I have 3 cuft of resin, 3 x 20(k) = 60.
BF = 12, since 3 cuft resin takes 18 lbs salt (6 lbs/cuft): 18 lbs salt / (3 lbs/gal solution saturation) / (0.5 gal/min flow rate) = 12 minutes

Alternatively, I read on https://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Water_Softener_Salt_Dose.php that a gallon of brine solution typically contains 2.6 lbs of salt (since the volume of solution goes up as the salt dissolves in). In that case, I would set BF as follows:

BF = 14, since 3 cuft resin takes 18 lbs salt (6 lbs/cuft): 18 lbs salt / (2.6 lbs/gal solution saturation) / (0.5 gal/min flow rate) = 14 minutes

Moving to 6 lbs/cuft rather than 8 lbs/cuft doesn't make a massive difference in terms of salt (using the math in the other post again, I calculate 77 lbs/month @ 6 lbs/cuft vs. 88 lbs/month @ 8 lbs/cuft), but it would be a saving, and more importantly, if it gives slightly less-soft water, it'll make my wife happier!

Please let me know if I got the numbers right, and also if I should make an iron compensation beyond the H=36 I've got. Any other settings that should be updated?

Thank you!

 

[Bannerman]

The salt dissolve rate is considered to be 3 lbs per gallon throughout the industry. While technically inaccurate, it is close enough for most water softening applications.

Suggest verifying the disinfection method utilized by your water supplier. Many utilities have adopted using chloramine (chlorine and ammonia), but chloramine will also oxidize iron as will Ozone.

If your water does actually contain iron, the hardness reduction efficiency will usually be reduced to prevent iron fouling of the resin bed.

While most municipal water suppliers will post an annual test report on their web site, any should provide a copy on request. If you want to have the water tested, suggest an independent lab such as National Labs who specialize in water quality testing and do not have anything to gain by selling water conditioning equipment to you.

http://watercheck.myshopify.com/?aff=5

Water softening involves compromise. To obtain the highest quality water (least hardness leakage) involves using the greatest and least efficient amount of salt. As a balance between efficiency, water quality, usable capacity and regeneration frequency, 8 lbs/ft3 is the usual recommended salt setting.

Although you had originally intended 24 lbs salt (8 lbs/ft3) to regenerate 72,000 grains usable capacity, 48 lbs salt was being used instead. . Before deciding if the water is too soft, suggest first reducing the salt setting and assess the water softness after several months use.

For comparison, the chart below lists the various usable capacities regenerated as related to the salt setting. At the bottom of each salt setting column, shows the Hardness Reduction Efficiency, Hardness Leakage, Water Quality and Salt Efficiency for each salt setting.

 

[Reach4]

Alternatively, I read on https://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Water_Softener_Salt_Dose.php that a gallon of brine solution typically contains 2.6 lbs of salt (since the volume of solution goes up as the salt dissolves in).

Yes, but--!! The question is not how do I get x gallons of brine, but rather how do I get x amount of salt dissolved. So for 6 lb/cuft of salt, you need to add 6/3*3 or 6 gallons of water. The fact that turns into more than 6 gallons of brine does not matter at BF time, but I think it matters during BD time.

Remember I had said you might want to up BF to 70 minutes? With 6-lb/cuft of salt, 60 minutes is fine since you are drawing less.

Regarding your hardness testing, I would get a Hach 5-B to run your own test. I would consider getting a low-range chlorine test kit to make sure there is some detectable free chlorine in the water when it hits your house. And I would suspect that non-zero iron test was in error, unless the water had been going thru a lot of steel pipe after the chlorine was all consumed.

So here is where we sit:
System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 3 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 31 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day ; 225 ; 60 gal per person prediction (auto-tunes)
Est days/regen ; 7.41 ; presuming days each use estimated

Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5812 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 60.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 36 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
DO = 30 ; Day Override (typ 30 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 12 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?
----------------------------------------------
Revised based on number from https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-for-programming-fleck-5810.82673/#post-595983
BLFC = 0.5
cubic ft resin = 3

Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
2.000 ; 30.1 ; 4 ** Hey, maybe you want to experiment with super-saver
2.500 ; 36.2 ; 5
3.000 ; 41.5 ; 6
3.500 ; 46.2 ; 7 ** Where California would like you to be.
4.000 ; 50.3 ; 8 ** If you want to experiment
4.500 ; 54.0 ; 9
5.000 ; 57.3 ; 10
5.500 ; 60.3 ; 11
6.000 ; 63.0 ; 12 ** what you are moving to
6.500 ; 65.6 ; 13
7.000 ; 67.9 ; 14
7.500 ; 70.0 ; 15
8.000 ; 71.9 ; 16 **old intended BF setting (but the BLFC number was wrong)
8.500 ; 73.8 ; 17
9.000 ; 75.5 ; 18
16.000 ; 91.0 ; 32 ** where you were with your BF setting!
-----------------------------------------------------------
With your blue injector, I expect your brine to be drawn in about the first 13.9 minutes of the 60 minute BD cycle. The rest is slow rinse, where the brine continues slowly and is followed by slow laminar flow water for the rest of the 60 minutes.

 

[invernite]

Although you had originally intended 24 lbs salt (8 lbs/ft3) to regenerate 72,000 grains usable capacity, 48 lbs salt was being used instead. . Before deciding if the water is too soft, suggest first reducing the salt setting and assess the water softness after several months use.

Great point - I think I'll make the BLFC adjustment first and give it some time. That way I'll be able to better identify the differences as a result of that, and then separately as a result of moving to 6 lbs salt/cu ft, if it's still warranted at the time.

So here is where we sit:
System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 3 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 31 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day ; 225 ; 60 gal per person prediction (auto-tunes)
Est days/regen ; 7.41 ; presuming days each use estimated

Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5812 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 60.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 36 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
DO = 30 ; Day Override (typ 30 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 12 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?
----------------------------------------------
Revised based on number from https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-for-programming-fleck-5810.82673/#post-595983
BLFC = 0.5
cubic ft resin = 3

Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
2.000 ; 30.1 ; 4 ** Hey, maybe you want to experiment with super-saver
2.500 ; 36.2 ; 5
3.000 ; 41.5 ; 6
3.500 ; 46.2 ; 7 ** Where California would like you to be.
4.000 ; 50.3 ; 8 ** If you want to experiment
4.500 ; 54.0 ; 9
5.000 ; 57.3 ; 10
5.500 ; 60.3 ; 11
6.000 ; 63.0 ; 12 ** what you are moving to
6.500 ; 65.6 ; 13
7.000 ; 67.9 ; 14
7.500 ; 70.0 ; 15
8.000 ; 71.9 ; 16 **old intended BF setting (but the BLFC number was wrong)
8.500 ; 73.8 ; 17
9.000 ; 75.5 ; 18
16.000 ; 91.0 ; 32 ** where you were with your BF setting!

Thanks for the summary of settings, Reach4. I'll go with what you have provided above, with the following exceptions:

BD = 70 (since I'm sticking with 8 lbs/cu ft salt for the moment)
C = 72
BF = 16

I'll watch the salt usage over the next few months and also if the water feels okay, or if we want to consider moving to 6 lbs/cu ft salt.

Thanks so much for the patience and help - you guys are awesome!

 

[invernite]

My settings had RF = dF1b and BW = 8. I believe dF2b is double backwash and requires a different part (a different "cam"?). I don't know if I have that part, but I do know that my settings were previously for a single backwash and the system was generally working. Should I leave dF1b and the previous BW = 8 in lieu of the separate 4 and 5 minute backwash durations that were suggested?

 

[Bannerman]

Double BW is beneficial when using less than 6 lbs/ft3 salt setting. With using 8 lbs/ft3, continue with the Df1b setting.

Anticipating your water has no visible silt/sand, 8-minutes BW should be sufficient to loosen, expand and reclassify the resin bed in preparation of the Brine Draw cycle to directly follow.

 

[invernite]

Thank you, Bannerman!

 

[ditttohead]

Check the diagnostics as well, Regen and up button simultaneously for 5 seconds. This will give you current flow rate, hours since last regen, gallons used since last regen and much more. See if you have any unusual water usages going on. Typical is about 60 gallons per person per day.