Does using or not using a salt grid affect programming?

[Aaron R]

I am definitely new to this and am studying up for proper programming for the Fleck 5600 SXT. I don't want to burden the forum with giving me specific settings but one piece of information that I cant find anything on is whether the fact that I have a salt-grid in the bottom of my brine-tank has any impact on programming. I imagine the brine fill might need to be increased?

I will give my specs in the event someone wants to do the hard work of giving the rest of the values for me

Number in household: 3 (2 adults, 1 toddler)
Hardness measured around 15 grains
Iron levels are fairly low
Fleck 5600 SXT / 48,000 grain tank / Salt grid in brine tank


Thanks for your help!
Aaron

 

[Reach4]

whether the fact that I have a salt-grid in the bottom of my brine-tank has any impact on programming. I imagine the brine fill might need to be increased?

No effect.

When new, you would want to add extra water before the first regen. But thereafter, each time the softener will suck down the brine to the level determined buy the air check pickup. That then serves as the base amount. Then the controller adds the measured amount of water to make brine for the next regen.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

No. The water added to the salt will only dissolve salt until it reaches saturation. It is not based on the amount of contact with the salt.

 

[Aaron R]

No effect.

When new, you would want to add extra water before the first regen. But thereafter, each time the softener will suck down the brine to the level determined buy the air check pickup. That then serves as the base amount. Then the controller adds the measured amount of water to make brine for the next regen.

Thanks! Some videos say to add 1 gallon of water whereas others show a different amount of water based on a few scenarios. Whats the proper way to determine the amount water to add before the first regen?

 

[Reach4]

Some videos say to add 1 gallon of water whereas others show a different amount of water based on a few scenarios. Whats the proper way to determine the amount water to add before the first regen?

That is different (not programming). For the first setup, then the salt grid matters. You could add enough water to get the level to the top of the salt grid, and then add another 3 gallons.

Here is how I would set it up for economical salt usage. I am presuming a 0.5 BLFC, which is common for the 5600SXT

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin = 1.5 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000
Raw hardness = 16 ; including any compensation
People = 3 ; gallons affects reserve calc
Estimated gal/day = 180 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days/regen = 10.4 ; Computed days ignoring reserve

Fleck 5600SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/Upflw, Single Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 30.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 16 ; Hardness-- compensate if needed
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 180 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 28 ; Day Override
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 6 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = ; flow meter, make note of what is there

Alternatives:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
4 ; 22.8 ; 4
5 ; 27.3 ; 5
6 ; 30.0 ; 6
7 ; 33.1 ; 7
8 ; 36.0 ; 8
9 ; 38.5 ; 9
10 ; 40.5 ; 10
11 ; 42.0 ; 11
12 ; 43.1 ; 12
13 ; 43.9 ; 13
14 ; 44.6 ; 14
15 ; 45.0 ; 15

The less salt per cubic ft, the more salt efficient, but more hardness breakthrough.
The sweet area is in bold.

 

[Aaron R]

That is different (not programming). For the first setup, then the salt grid matters. You could add enough water to get the level to the top of the salt grid, and then add another 3 gallons.

Here is how I would set it up for economical salt usage. I am presuming a 0.5 BLFC, which is common for the 5600SXT

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin = 1.5 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000
Raw hardness = 16 ; including any compensation
People = 3 ; gallons affects reserve calc
Estimated gal/day = 180 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days/regen = 10.4 ; Computed days ignoring reserve

Fleck 5600SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/Upflw, Single Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 30.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 16 ; Hardness-- compensate if needed
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 180 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 28 ; Day Override
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 6 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = ; flow meter, make note of what is there

Alternatives:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
4 ; 22.8 ; 4
5 ; 27.3 ; 5
6 ; 30.0 ; 6
7 ; 33.1 ; 7
8 ; 36.0 ; 8
9 ; 38.5 ; 9
10 ; 40.5 ; 10
11 ; 42.0 ; 11
12 ; 43.1 ; 12
13 ; 43.9 ; 13
14 ; 44.6 ; 14
15 ; 45.0 ; 15

The less salt per cubic ft, the more salt efficient, but more hardness breakthrough.
The sweet area is in bold.

Now I have more questions haha. You have C as 30, but my unit is a 48k grain unit, should this be 48? Also, the Day Override at 28 I thought that 14 was the maximum recommended? My dumbest question is how do I affect the salt lb/cuft or is that the number we want to see lower and C and BF determine that?

 

[Bannerman]

As you state the water contains iron, that would signify your water source is a private well.
"Fairly low" iron is not a measured quantity. A specific quantity is needed as each 1ppm of iron, will require a hardness compensation factor of 5 grains hardness. (ex: 15 grains hardness + 1ppm iron = program for 20 grains Hardness)
When the softener is exposed to iron, then the most efficient settings are not usually appropriate and, regeneration will need to take place more frequently than when the softener is not exposed to iron.

A quantity of liquid will remain within the brine tank at all times as the brine drawn, will stop being drawn once the level drops to the air-check valve within the brine tank. The initial amount of water added, should be the amount needed to dissolve the salt for the first regeneration + the amount which will remain within the tank. There is no harm if more water than necessary is added.

Each 1 gallon added to the brine tank, will dissolve 3 lbs salt.

 

[LLigetfa]

That is different (not programming). For the first setup, then the salt grid matters. You could add enough water to get the level to the top of the salt grid, and then add another 3 gallons.

As I said, the amount of contact area is not a factor. The water will only dissolve as much salt that it can until it is saturated. As the salt dissolves into the water, more salt drops down in contact with the brine. If the contact area mattered and brine did not reach saturation as more salt contacts the brine, it would just keep dissolving/dropping/dissolving/dropping...

 

[Reach4]

As I said, the amount of contact area is not a factor.

Presuming that amount is greater than zero. I know, that should have gone without saying.

The amount of water above the pickup level is what is important. But as said, that is automatic after the first regen. The initial amount is not critical, especially if you regen early.

For your new installation, there is more stuff to do. Your dealer probably provided instructions including to turn on the water slowly initially, and then to do a backwash.

 

[Bannerman]

In support to LLigetfa's comments, as the salt grid support legs are typically hollow and will contain salt, that salt will be in contact with water even if the water level is not higher than the grid. As that salt dissolves, more will fall into the legs until the brine strength is saturated.

While softener's are generally sold as a specific total capacity (ex: 48,000 grains), the total capacity is not usually programmed to be used as each regeneration cycle would require a large and inefficient amount of salt.

As some resin will be flushed away over time due to wear and breakage, your 1.5 cuft softener would typically be considered to have a total capacity of 45K grains over its lifespan. To regenerate all 45K would require 22.5 lbs salt which equates to 2000 grains per lb salt efficiency.

In setting a usable Capacity of 36K, then only 12 lbs salt would be needed, thereby providing an efficiency of 3,000 grains/lb.
A usable Capacity of 30K would require 9 lbs or 3,333 grains/lb.

These settings are recommended when the water does not contain iron. As you stated your water contains iron, specify the iron quantity so as to determine the appropriate 'C', 'H' and salt dose settings.

The BF time in minutes X the BLFC number (assumed as 0.5 gpm) = the amount of water to enter the brine tank. Each 1 gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt.

 

[Reach4]

If you have a well, you need a lab water test for the purpose of setting things up. I like kit 90 from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/
They mail the kit. You mail back the filled sample vials. They email the results.

 

[Aaron R]

I ordered the kit you recommended. We had some guy come to our house a couple years ago and he did a water test. I remember him saying our iron levels were fine and wasn't a concern (In hindsight that might mean he found no iron or he would have tried to sell us something for it) but that our water was hard. Tried to sell us a whole house filtration system for almost 10K but we knew better. House already had a water softener but it has been out of commision for about 2 years now. I tried fixing it on a couple of occasions and finally gave up. I picked up this Fleck 5600 SXT brand new for $300 from someone who bought it but sold their house before they installed it. The one I am replacing is TINY compared to this one.

If I assume my iron is low enough not to compensate and just go with 16 for hardness until I get my test results back from karlabs and adjust at that point if we have iron is that a reasonable path forward?

 

[Reach4]

If I assume my iron is low enough not to compensate and just go with 16 for hardness until I get my test results back from karlabs and adjust at that point if we have iron is that a reasonable path forward?

Do you have rust-colored staining in your toilet tanks? If no, maybe start with 17. If yes, maybe start with 25. The difference in salt use is minimal. When we see your numbers, we can discuss DO, and what you will use for H going forward . You will have results soon.

 

[ditttohead]

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/132
This has a simple description of the brine grid/function etc. Basically no function in modern systems unless you are limited in space. It allows you to use a smaller brine tank if needed. That being said, brine grids could allow for more accurate brining if your system has a float refill rather than times refill. Most Fleck, Clack, Autotrols use timed refill. Many of the off brands use float refill so an argument could be made to the effectiveness in those systems... getting too complex now.

 

[Aaron R]

Plan to install this weekend. Appreciate all your help. It looks like my tanks do have some rust colored deposits on the sides so I will use 25 for now.

In terms of initial startup I didn't really receive much. Is it preferable to run a complete regeneration or should I go through the steps to just do a backwash? I want to be sure everything is working correctly. Maybe I should hook everything up add salt and water to the brine tank, slowly open the bypass and then run a full regeneration before much salt is dissolved into the water? I presume new resin doesn't really need to be regenerated but considering I am on a well which does not have water level concerns it isn't very costly to regenerate.

 

[Reach4]

I think a backwash followed by a regen (which includes a backwash) would be good, although maybe over-cautious. The 9 pounds of salt should cost you less than $1.25.


You might sanitize the softener. The 5600 manual does not say that, but this is from the 5800 manual:

Disinfection Of Water Softeners
The materials of construction of the modern water softener
will not support bacterial growth, nor will these materials
contaminate a water supply. During normal use, a softener
may become fouled with organic matter, or in some cases with
bacteria from the water supply. This may result in an off-taste
or odor in the water.
Some softeners may need to be disinfected after installation
and some softeners will require periodic disinfection during
their normal life.
Depending upon the conditions of use, the style of softener, the
type of ion exchanger, and the disinfectant available, a choice
can be made among the following methods.
Sodium or Calcium Hypochlorite
Application
These materials are satisfactory for use with polystyrene
resins, synthetic gel zeolite, greensand and bentonites.
5.25% Sodium Hypochlorite
These solutions are available by various sellers of household
bleach. If stronger solutions are used, such as those sold for
commercial laundries, adjust the dosage accordingly.
1. Dosage
A. Polystyrene resin; 1.2 fluid ounce (35.5 ml) per cubic
foot.
B. Non-resinous exchangers; 0.8 fluid ounce (23.7 ml) per
cubic foot.
2. Salt tank softeners
A. Backwash the softener and add the required amount
of hypochlorite solution to the well of the salt tank. The
salt tank should have water in it to permit the solution
to be carried into the softener.
B. Proceed with the normal recharge.​

 

[Aaron R]

Ok, that sounds good! 1.2 oz of this(https://www.lowes.com/pd/Clorox-120-fl-oz-Outdoor-Bleach/4196255) in the brine tank. I'm guessing I should pour it down the tube in the brine tank so it dilutes into the water completely.

 

[Reach4]

Ok, that sounds good! 1.2 oz of this(https://www.lowes.com/pd/Clorox-120-fl-oz-Outdoor-Bleach/4196255) in the brine tank. I'm guessing I should pour it down the tube in the brine tank so it dilutes into the water completely.

If that is 7.5% bleach, then the amount would be 1.5*1.2*5.5%/7.5%=1.32 ounces. I found that 7.5% number in one unofficial place, so if you have a better number, plug that in.

Common "concentrated" bleach is 8.25%, and at $5.95 per jug for outdoor, that is at roughly double what I would expect to pay for bleach. Don't buy bleach that does not give a number, but most bleach, other than what is sold at a dollar store, has a concentration number.

 

[ditttohead]

Since you are on a well, you really need to consider investing a couple hundred dollars on a real water test.

Kar Labs or NTL Labs are my preferred testing companies.

 

[Aaron R]

I purchased the Kar Labs test yesterday. They shipped the kit out today so hopefully i will have results by the end of next week!