Water harder after regeneration?

[bbforks]

I have a water softener, 48,000 capacity with an Autotrol 255 controller. Unit worked well for about 10 years. I developed a health issue which prevented me from being able to fill the brine tank with salt for about 2 years. When I got better I filled the brine tank & regenerated the water softener to find that the 255 controller now needed service. I removed, cleaned & rebuilt the controller assy & put the unit in service. My water is 17 GPG hard from the well. The best softness I was able to get was about 8 GPG. I figured with time the softness would improve. I was sadly mistaken, it's been about 6 months & the water will still only get down to 8 GPG. I have the brine tank filling w/ 5 gallons of water, regenerating 3 times weekly. There are 5 people (2 adults, 3 teenagers) presently using the water, I've used an average of 75 gallons a day for my calculations. I've tried using Iron Out in the brine tank with no improvement. I now find that the water is harder (about 30 GPG) immediately after a regeneration, then gradually returns to 8. I'm using a Hach 5B testing kit to test hardness. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Bannerman]

Is there any water being used downstream of the softener while regeneration is occurring? When obtaining the sample after regeneration, is the water permitted to run for a few minutes to ensure the sample is fresh from the softener as opposed to water that has been sitting in the plumbing lines?

You stated your well hardness is 17 gpg. Is that a current test result or a hardness amount obtained in the past?

I believe the Hach 5B has an accuracy range from 0-30 gpg. Is the hardness kit too old so that accurate results can no longer be assured?

Suggest posting current lab test results for your well water. Also, describe your water system such as other methods of treatment or devices such as an acid neutralizer.

As you mentioned 'Iron Out', is there an actual iron issue or was using the cleaner just a random attempt to try something?

You may wish to detail the softener's current program settings. For your 1.5 cuft system, your current salt setting is 10 lbs/cuft but what amount of capacity has been programmed?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mialynette2003]

Salt will show up as hardness with your test kit. The system may not be rinsing enough. The sealing point may be allowing hardness bleed through. To test this, put the unit into a rinse cycle and test the drain water. If it's 0 grains soft, your distributor tube may not be sealing completely.

 

[bbforks]

First of all- thanks to both of you for your reply. I help others on another forum so I know the time involved & appreciate it very much.

To answer your questions-
1)-Is there anyone using water during a regeneration- I don't think so as the regeneration happens at 1 am

2)-Is 17 GPG the current hardness- yes, 17 GPG hard is the current hardness of the water as tested by the Hach 5b test kit-test kit was purchased 6 months ago when Autotrol 225 was rebuilt

3)-Are there any other water treatments- there are none- just the water softener

4)-As far as the Iron Out- was tried as a last ditch effort ( I thought maybe my system was Iron clogged from sitting unused for 2 years). I had my water tested at a local lab 6 months ago- iron content was mg/l-<.05, Manganese content was mg/l-<.02

5)-The program setting that I adjusted was brine fill. I initially didn't understand the importance of this until reading on this site. Apparently when I rebuilt the 225 I changed the salt setting because when I measured how much water was entering the brine tank I found it was only about 2.5 gallons. I adjusted this setting to 5 gallons & there has been no change in hardness of the "softened" water

6) Testing the sealing point of the softener- I thank you for the suggestion- I have a question- should I manually regenerate the softener first, then do another rinse cycle & check the drain water, or just do the rinse cycle & check the drain water? If there is a problem with the sealing point- the hardness be of the drain water will be 0, correct?- Just clarifying.

On the subject of hard water bleed through- my 225 valve has a bypass valve installed onto it ( the older version with the single sliding cartridge (?), not the newer version with the twin knobs. Do the sliding style of bypass valves have a tendency to have hard water bleed through? Is there a way to test this style bypass?

Thanks very much for your time

 

[Reach4]

As far as the Iron Out- was tried as a last ditch effort ( I thought maybe my system was Iron clogged from sitting unused for 2 years). I had my water tested at a local lab 6 months ago- iron content was mg/l-<.05, Manganese content was mg/l-<.02

Unusually low iron from a well. Do you have any signs of iron, such as orange in the toilet tank?

You may need new resin. And when you need new resin, there is the question of replacing the softener or just replacing the resin. Your symptoms seem odd. I would trigger an immediate regeneration, and watch that the brine all gets drawn out. You also have the clear housing on the side of your controller, and you can watch the ball bounce around during brine draw and seal off at the bottom when the brine has been sucked out after a few minutes.

 

[bbforks]

No orange in toilet tank. I was under the impression I should be looking for green around the sink faucets- I have no signs of anything except the calcium buildup from the hardness

 

[Bannerman]

If the bypass valve was the source of hardness bleed through, that wouldn't explain the higher hardness level (30) than the water coming from the well (17).

The leakage point mialynette was referring to, is the seal around the top of the riser tube where it meets the valve body. If there is a leak at that location, then hard water will enter at the top of the tank and will flow directly to the outlet through the leak around the riser tube, without flowing through the resin bed where hardness is removed. As mailynette stated, salt residue can appear as a higher hardness level so the higher hardness level appears to be coming from within the resin tank as opposed to a leaky bypass valve.

Often, tasting the drain water will indicate if there is a leak around the riser tube. Almost immediately after initiating a Brine draw cycle, the drain water will taste salty whereas if there is no leak, the brine will flow through the resin bed before exiting the drain so salt will not be detected at the drain for some time after initiating the Brine draw cycle.

 

[Reach4]

No orange in toilet tank. I was under the impression I should be looking for green around the sink faucets- which also have to signs of anything except the calcium buildup from the hardness

Not for iron or softening. Did you get a pH number from your water test?

I don't know how to test for bleed through of your bypass valve.

When you rebuilt the controller, did you put in new flapper valves?

That riser tube problem that mialynette2003 and Bannerman describe sounds really cool for explaining the symptoms. Time for a drain tube tasting!

 

[bbforks]

I will taste test the drain line test tomorrow evening & post the results. As far as watching the brine draw down & the ball in the clear housing- I have done that. The brine tank drains empty (I allowed the brine tank to empty itself of salt to check the draw during the slow rinse cycle), the ball stays raised until no more water is coming in from the brine tank to keep it afloat.

The pH of the water coming in from the well is 7.84 units, Chlorine (this is a well, not city water) is <.05 mg/l, nitrates are 1.68 mg/l as N.

When I rebuilt the 255 I replaced the flapper valves, springs, all O-rings - there was a kit from softenerparts.com (not an advertisement) that I purchased that covered all wear items.

 

[bbforks]

OK- after some taste testing I found the drain water gets salty 7 minutes into the brine wash.

I had a thought (a dangerous thing- I know)- to test the bypass portion of the 255- If I remove the cam so all flapper valves are closed & leave the bypass in the "softened" position, I should get no water out of the softener, correct? In theory, if I get water through the softener in this position then it would have to be leaking through the bypass valve. Do you think this is a viable test?

If I find no bleed through at the bypass, it seems that the media needs replacement. How hard is it to replace the media in the tank, as my water softener is in a pit in the middle of crawlspace with extremely limited space?

 

[ditttohead]

I would simply tear down the bypass and inspect it, it is not a complex part.

 

[bbforks]

I agree that tearing it apart doesn't seem that difficult, just trying to diagnose without having to turn off the water.

 

[Reach4]

My water is 17 GPG hard from the well. [...]I now find that the water is harder (about 30 GPG) immediately after a regeneration, then gradually returns to 8.

Your bypass valve leaking theory could explain the 8 GPG, it does not explain the 30 GPG.

Does your 30 GPG water taste salty?

Your slow rinse cycle is 50 minutes. How long into that cycle does the ball drop?

 

[bbforks]

Yes, it was salty. I didn't know that salt would show up as hardness. I was regening the softener to often I think because I've backed off regenerating it & the saltiness & the high hardness (30) have gone away.

 

[Reach4]

I didn't know that salt would show up as hardness.

I had not known that high salt levels would show up as hardness either.

Do check the timing of how long before the ball drops. You want enough slow rinse time after the brine is gone to rinse away the salt from the resin. If the draw is too slow, it could be a problem with the injector. http://www.softenerparts.com/kb_results.asp?ID=135

 

[bbforks]

I read the article you posted. My timing seems about right.

Just to clarify my situation, my 255 regenerates at 1am. In the morning after a regen my hardness was 8. I wanted to see what the hardness was directly after a regen so I manually regened the system. When tested directly after the regen it was the same hardness as my untreated water (as compared to my garden hose which gets no softening). I regened again immediately ( thinking that I had made a mistake) & this time it measured 30. This is when I posted on the site. I've since backed off regen to once a week ( I was chewing through salt like crazy, trying to bring my media back to life). The hardness has stayed at 8 since, with 1 regen since the change. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
In all cases, when I test the water I let it run at least 1 full minute before taking my sample

I appreciate your patience with me, I know how frustrating working with a novice can be.

 

[Reach4]

I agree that tearing it apart doesn't seem that difficult, just trying to diagnose without having to turn off the water.

Time to dig in.

http://www.softenerparts.com/Bypass_Repair_Kit_Obsolete_p/ap155bprkit.htm has picture of parts for the old Autotrol bypass valve. http://www.softenerparts.com/kb_results.asp?ID=57

 

[bbforks]

I disassembled & checked the bypass valve- all looked good. Looks like I'm going to have to replace the resin. What resin should I use?

 

[Reach4]

Looks like I'm going to have to replace the resin. What resin should I use?

Purolite Cation Exchange Resin | C-100-E (C100E) is the resin that others compare themselves too. High grade branded resin. 8% crosslinked, which is what you would want.

Their more premium resin for the purpose is their SST 60 resin. Most recomendations say that it is top resin but not worth the premium.

Others may know other resins that give high performance per dollar.

 

[WorthFlorida]

Many years ago I had a water softener for my home in Illinois. Water hardness was 29 grams (rocks in the water). Over the years I had these three issues and each time it fixed my problems. The IRON OUT was recommended by the manufacture of the softener.

Before doing anything else get yourself SUPER IRON OUT from any hardware or home center or even your super market. Mix about a 2lbs (or more) of the powder in a few gallons of water, pour the mix into the brine tank. Put the softener in regen mode and after the regen run the cold water tap from the bathtub. A good chance that your resin is coated with iron and it prevents the ion exchange from occurring. When I did this it took almost 30 minutes of running water to rid of all the red iron. Do another regen of iron out, redo the flush and then run the hot water side to fill the tank up with soft water. Then clean out the brine tank of everything. Fill it with salt, allow the salt to dissolve a little and then regen it again. You might be surprise that it will work like a new softener. (Sorry, I just read that you did use Iron Out).

If your valve for the softener runs (turns) from a motor, check that the valve is moving. Some may have a sheer pin from the motor shaft and it might be broken.

I think you stated it's OK, check the manual bypass valve that sits behind the water softener. The O rings dislodged and it will cause hard water to bypass the softener.