Water harder after regeneration?

[bbforks]

WorthFlorida- am I understanding you correctly that the water flowing into your bathtub was red after the Super Iron Out treatment? I've been using I cup per 40lb bag of regular Iron out with no improvement in the hardness, but I've never noticed any redness in the water.

 

[bbforks]

Update- I'm so frustrated I could scream. I replaced the resin over Labor day weekend. I used a 10% crosslinked resin for added life due to iron, took brine tank apart & fully cleaned, found out during the resin replacement that I have a turbulator installed, took that apart & cleaned it as well.

Installed fresh resin (1.5 CU.FT), regenerated softener twice & still only reaching a softness of 8. I let the system regenerate on it's own twice since then with same results. Set off a manual regeneration & timed all events-all match the specs in the Autotrol manual. Removed & checked all flapper valves- all have a nice imprint of the surface they're sealing against, no debris was found inside the Autotrol. I then removed the cam & manually opened valves #2 &#5 & checked softness of drain water out of drain tube to check for hard water bleed thru somewhere in the system- still only a softeness of 8- same as the kitchen faucet. I then set the unit in the Brine/Slow rinse cycle & tested the drain water to check the O-ring & distribution tube, drain water took 9 minutes to get salty.

I have a #12 backwash plug installed, as well as the blue colored injector with the salt setting set on 12 lb. I've watched the brine be sucked out of the brine tank, the ball in the see thru tank stays afloat until the brine tank is empty. Is there a possibility I received faulty resin? Does that happen in this industry? I have no clue what I'm missing, getting ready to throw in the towel. I appreciate all feedback, Thanks

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Installed fresh resin (1.5 CU.FT), regenerated softener twice & still only reaching a softness of 8.

Make sure there is not a bypass valve.

Check that the input to the softener is on the left when viewed from the front (opposite of this picture) for your Autotrol.

 

[bbforks]

Thanks for the reply- yes there is a Autotrol bypass on the softener. It had the push style which I replaced with the dual rotary dials.

To test for a hard water bleed thru I removed the cam from the Autotrol & manually opened #2 (incoming hard water) & #5 (drain) valves. I tested the drain water (8 grains hard) which matched the kitchen faucet. I studied the flow chart of the 225 and there are no valves which could possibly contaminate the water in the resin tank with hard water when releasing water from the drain using the #5 valve as the draining point.

 

[Bannerman]

Why are you testing the drain output? Just test a sample from a faucet fed by the softener.

 

[Reach4]

I think I did not communicate well. I was talking about plumbing on the way to the softener bypass valve.

 

[bbforks]

I think I did not communicate well. I was talking about plumbing on the way to the softener bypass valve.

#1- why test the drain water- to test for hard water bleed thru somewhere in the 225 head. If i had soft water at the drain yet hard water at the faucet i knew the new resin i installed was working & hard water was leaking in somewhere.

#2- I was the one that didn't communicate clearly. I did understand you meant an auxillary by-pass, I should have acknowledged that i didn't have one but did want you to know that the Autotrol bypass was the dial type & new

Ty for your responses.

Has anyone ever gotten faulty resin?

 

[bbforks]

When i tested the length of time it took for brine to reach the drain line during the brining cycle , does that test both the o ring at the top of the distributor tube as well as for any cracks in the distributor tube? I thought that it did, as it took 9 minutes for the drain line to get salty. I therefore ruled out any problems with the distributor tube.

The support tech at softenerparts.com seems to think my distributor tube is cracked, even though the brine took so long to get to the drain. Any thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

The support tech at softenerparts.com seems to think my distributor tube is cracked, even though the brine took so long to get to the drain. Any thoughts?

That seems like a reasonable explanation. It seems here could be similar symptoms if the tube was too short, to small diameter, bad seal, or some such.

I am wondering if there could be a test for that without pulling the controller. The one I was thinking about would be harder than lifting the controller and inspecting. Do you remember how high your distributor tube came? This is much different for the Autotrol 255 than it is for the Fleck valves:

Distributor Tube Diameter Required...13/16 OD (20.6 mm)
Distributor Tube Length .... 1 1/4 inch (31.8 mm) higher than top of mineral tank
​

That OD is slightly smaller than 1/2 inch schedule 40 PVC.

 

[Bannerman]

With a down flow brine cycle, if there is a leak in the connection between the distributor tube and the valve head or damage to the distributor tube's upper section, then brine will usually be evident to the drain line almost immediately or soon after commencement of the brine cycle.

If the distributor tube damage is located lower on the tube, brine to drain will take progressively longer to occur as the damage is located progressively lower on the distributor tube since the resin will slowdown the flow of the brine to the damaged location.

Is there any resin evident in any faucet aerators? Damage to the distributor tube or bottom screen (especially when no gravel under-bed is used) will typically result in resin being discharged into the house plumbing system during regular Service flow.

Edit: Just re-read your earlier post #22. With a turbulator installed, then a gravel underbed would not be utilized. Perhaps the turbulator is the cause of the issues experienced.

 

[bbforks]

The distributor tube is the same one that's been installed since the system was new & working properly. I removed the resin, cleaned the tank & turbulator assy, inspected for cracks visually, reinserted the turbulator into the resin tank, covered the end of the tubing with a sandwich bag & rubber band & installed the new resin. I coated the top of the tube with silicon lubricant & screwed down the tank adapter. All seemed to go well, no visual concerns at all.

The turbulator had some resin in the secondary tube (the tube with the check valve at the top). I flushed out the resin, checked the balls (they moved freely in their bores), removed the bottom of the turbulator assy (the part that removes with the 2 screws) to check for cracks, etc, checked the rubber valve (not sure of it's name, it seems to shoot water from the bottom of the main tube into the secondary tube- I assume to create a vacuum to pull the resin into the secondary tube), it was flexible & returned to it's original position when "un-squeased.

I checked to see if the backwash was working by backlighting my resin tank (it's an opague tank) & watched the resin rise during the backwash cycle. The resin rises about an 1" to 1-1/2" during backwash. I've read where the resin doesn't rise much with a turbulator vs a plain distributor so I thought this rise was OK

I appreciate all the feedback, this thing is really getting me. The tech at softenerparts.com (not an advertisment, just for reference) is telling me that the timed brine rinse test isn't valid because the flow rate of the brine cycle is too slow & the pressure to weak to properly induce a leak if there was a problem present. I'm not challenging your diagnostic skills, just offering what the tech said- he may well be trying the CYA approach to his products since all rebuild parts were sourced from their site.

I assume you guys have experience with the timed brine test & it does in fact test the distributor tube for cracks & the associated o ring?

Also- you mentioned that maybe the turbulator is the source of my issues? How could that be- don't understand how?

Also- no resin balls in the aerators at the faucets.

 

[Reach4]

The following is a description that is part of a patent where the turbulator is cited as prior art:

Measures have been proposed to enhance scrubbing during backwash. The most widely known is the Autotrol/Osmonics/GE/Pentair turbulator. The turbulator includes a check valve in the normal riser tube/distributor combination of a resin tank that diverts backwash water through a duck bill check valve and up a tube mounted parallel to the main riser tube. This secondary tube is open at the bottom end, which is positioned about 0.5 inches above the top of the duck bill check valve. At the top of the secondary tube is another check valve which prevents water from flowing back down the secondary tube. This additional check valve is positioned slightly below the top of the ion exchange resin or other media in the tank.

In operation, backwash water is diverted through the duck bill check, jetting up the secondary tube and carrying resin with it. This resin plumes out of the cage surrounding an additional third check valve and settles back down through the bed to repeat the cycle. The motion cleans the resin better than the gentle floating action of a normal backwash.

Turbulators work reasonably well but cannot be used with an abrasive filter media. They also cannot be used with a bed having gravel under the resin or “gravel under-beds.” Because a gravel under-bed cannot be used, a portion of the ion exchange media must act as an under-bed and is not available for ion exchange. The efficiency of the water softener is reduced by the percentage of unused resin. In addition, the duck bill check valve is in the resin and is prone to plugging with resin and allowing resin migration into the plumbing lines. It is also subject to attack by chlorine and chloramines, and resin will enter the plumbing lines if it fails. Moreover, the check valve at the top of the secondary tube is prone to plugging with resin, causing a bypass path around the resin bed. This bypass results in premature discharge of hard water.
​

I am not interpreting that text, and it may or may not be helpful.

I note you did not respond to the question about how far up the distributor tube extended above the tank.

 

[bbforks]

The distributor tube, sitting on the bare bottom of the resin tank ( no bed at all) came up thru the tank adapter to 1/8" below the male push in fitting of the valve body. I didn't measure how far out of the tank the tube came out because it was the same tube which had come with the unit when new

I measured the distance the tube was down in the bore of the adapter when i initially couldn't get the body down far enough on the adapter to put the red " U" shaped keeper in place. I found the problem was I had installed the air trap for the brine tank backwards & the tube fitting was hitting the body of the valve.

I reversed the air trap & everything went together fine.

Ty for the info on the turbulator, I'll have to give that some thought

 

[bbforks]

If in-fact I have a cracked distribution tube or a leaking o ring at the adapter, the water below that point should still be soft correct? I'm thinking of removing the control valve and taking water samples from varying depths from the distribution tube. If the tube is cracked I should be able to pin point where based on the softness of the water ( the water would go from being soft to hard at the point of the infiltration of hard water). If I get hard water readings all the way at the bottom of the distributor tube, the resin therefore isn't treating the water. Is my thinking correct?

 

[Reach4]

Is my thinking correct?

I don't know. If you blow into the distribution tube, the pressure that you blow at that first produces bubbles could tell where the first leak is. But your lungs are not calibrated. But maybe you could get some idea.

http://www.softenerparts.com/Turbulator_Kit_1040021_MD7133_935T_p/ap1040021.htm gives some insight as to how the turbulator is made. If you get in there, maybe you can get some pictures. If there are duckbill check valves, those would seem to be potential points of failure. I can't predict the effect of such a failure.

 

[Bannerman]

watched the resin rise during the backwash cycle. The resin rises about an 1" to 1-1/2" during backwash.

But was resin being ejected out the top of the secondary tube? The point of the turbulator is to circulate the resin, moving the resin located at the bottom of the tank, to the top of the resin bed thereby providing bed expansion in an alternate manner. If there is a crack or leak in the main riser tube, then water maybe being ejected from that leak so that insufficient flow reaches the 'duck bill' valve at the bottom of the tank, thereby reducing the force needed to circulate resin.

Water will always take the path of least resistance. If there is an internal riser tube leak or if the turbulator check valve(s) remain stuck open, then brine entering at the top of the tank during brine draw, could have a path to bypass the resin bed. If the check valve located at the top of the secondary tube is stuck open, brine (and hard water) entering above the resin bed, would have a less restricted route to the bottom of the resin tank thereby bypassing the majority of the resin bed.

You could obtain a new riser and bottom distributor. This way, you would inexpensively eliminate the existing riser and turbulator, to determine if the problem is resolved. If so, you could then decide to either add a gravel under-bed or obtain a new riser and turbulator.