Wall hung vs. water spot & skidmarks - TOTO, Eago, Kohler

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by meeotch, Jul 1, 2014.

  1. meeotch

    meeotch New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    New York
    I've got a bathroom that pretty much needs a wall hung toilet. (For reasons that I won't get into, the tiling won't be done before the toilet installation, and there may be a toilet height adjustment in the future. Please just take these as given.) The decor is "modern" - so an AS Glenwall, for instance, doesn't really work. Must be ADA compliant. Budget for the whole enterprise is sub-$1000, or thereabouts.

    The problem is that everything I'm finding that fits the above specs is a dual-flush. My understanding is that dual-flush toilets only keep the smaller (0.9gal) volume in the bowl, resulting in a very small water spot. The Toto Acquia spec sheet, for instance, gives 5.5" x 4.75". And the reviews online (glowing, for the most part) uniformly mention a problem with skidmarks: http://totousa.com/products/toilets?type=159&detail=142,&family=142

    I've also looked at the Kohler Veil: http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Veilâ„¢-Wall-Hung-Toilets/content/CNT19300037.htm
    and a couple of the very cool looking Eago models: http://tinyurl.com/opuaybd I believe these are all wash-down, but the websites don't specify, nor give water spot size.

    Can anyone suggest a solution?
    1) A single-flush or otherwise more powerful wall hung with no skidmark problems & a modern look.
    2) Modifying a dual-flush to single-flush, and keeping 1.6gal in the bowl. (Which sounds impossible and probably warranty-voiding.)
    3) I suppose a modern-looking floor mount with a large water spot / powerful flush that won't be a nightmare to take up and remount later on a (possibly raised) floor.

    Yes, I know I'm asking for good, fast and cheap simultaneously. Please don't hold that against me.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2014
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,889
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    An in-wall tank with wall hung bowl will have less water in the bowl. That's a given. They use them a lot in Europe. The Amsterdam airport has them, hotels in India, and quite a few other places. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. The floor mount Aquia is similar in design, which I had in my home for a while. The wash down bowl gets a lot, but yes, not as well as a bowl that holds more water. The Aquia wall hung bowl now comes with Sanagloss, so that should help. I have not used the Veil I believe, but did use some Kohler wall hung bowls in India. They seemed to work fine.

    There is no modification to make the bowl hold more water. It is what it is. No mater how much water you pour in, it will just drain out. Good luck with that one. :)

    Tiling: Tiling goes on before the bowl is hung. You do not cut tile around the bowl. Same thing with floor mount. Tile first, and then set bowl.
  3. DougB

    DougB Member

    I am in the process of finishing my master bathroom. I have installed a Toto Acquia wall hung toilet. The water closet and the metal frame (that holds the toilet - have to be inside the wall. This supporting frame is 24" wide - you need to adjust the studs. The height of the toilet is set by adjusting the metal frame - before you 'lag bolt' the frame to the supporting studs. All this has to be done before the cement board / drywall, and the tile.

    I'll post a picture later today.
  4. DougB

    DougB Member

    Here's a picture of the rough in:
    Toto_Rough_In.jpg

    It's mostly tiled over:

    Toto_Partial_Tiled.jpg
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2014
  5. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    New York, NY
    You are fundamentally misunderstanding how toilets work. The water spot size is entirely-dependent upon the bowl involved, and dual-flushes don't necessarily have a smaller amount of water in the bowl than other types. The water spot is the width of the water spot, not its depth. Depth is obviously a component of volume. You don't need a giant water spot to eliminate skid marks. You need a flush that covers the whole bowl area, and you need a surface to which stuff is less-adhering. Also, the bowl never, ever, ever contains the amount of "per-flush" water in the specs. That is how much water drains from the tank to effectuate the flush plus the amount used to refill the bowl. The water that drains to effectuate the flush causes a siphon which sweeps the flush water plus the contents of the bowl (water plus added waste or fluid) over the weir of the trapway and into the waste pipe, and then refills the bowl so that the water is just touching the weir of the trapway. Add a little fluid, and a little will go over the weir and down the drain. Add a lot, and a siphon will develop that pulls everything from the bowl. In a washdown flush, there is no siphon jet at the bottom -- all the added water comes down the sides of the bowl. Designed properly, this should give you good skid mark removal.

    Because of the way toilets are designed, the bowl only holds so much before any more flows over the weir. And, if properly-installed, the bowl will be refilled to that point every time. When the toilet turns off, the water will settle (if it's overfilling a bit) to a natural level as the last extra drops run over the weir. You can add gallons to the bowl, and it will always settle to the same place.

    When you look at this cutaway of a toilet, you can see why:

    [​IMG]

    The dual-flush has a different discharge location (horizontal rather than vertical), but the principles are the same.

    The Aquia dual-flush wall-mount bowl is a tried-and-true bowl used all over, even in commercial applications. With the addition of Sanagloss, it yields as good a result as any modern toilet.

    You are overthinking this, and apparently being swayed by the outlier, stupid reviews (some of any group of reviews will be stupid), and ignoring the thousands upon thousands of people who are happy with the product.

    Hope this helps.
  6. meeotch

    meeotch New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    New York
    Thanks for the replies. I went back to try and find those reviews that seemed to be unanimous regarding the Aquia's issues with skidmarks - but of course, I was completely unable to dig them up in my browser history. Argh. I did find some similar complaints about Duravit wall-hung, and in fact some Toto floor mounted models, but that's it.

    Regarding tiling: the wall tiling we can likely manage prior to installation. (Or in the middle of installation - since the plumbing/carrier work will happen before, and the toilet hanging after.) But the floor probably won't be tiled until later. It's a long and tortured story.

    Anyway, I prefer the look of the Eago's - but the Aquia has gotten so many good reviews (and many others for Toto's low-flow in general), that I'm leaning toward going with a known-ish quantity.

    Does anyone know if Geberit actuator buttons are compatible with the Toto carrier? Geberit has a lot more button options, including "remote control" buttons you can mount wherever. (Though I know the Toto bowl will work with the Geberit carrier, so that's a backup plan.)
  7. meeotch

    meeotch New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    New York
    @wjcandee - thanks for the detailed info. One request for clarification: my understanding is that a dual-flush toilet is designed such that the volume of water in the bowl is sized to the smaller of the two flush options. So for a 0.9/1.6 dual-flush, the 0.9gal option has to provide enough water to flush what's in the bowl and then refill. Doesn't this imply that a 1.6gal single-flush would (or could) maintain a larger in-bowl volume?
    And more volume would then imply wider / deeper wet area, depending on the shape. At the risk of being gross, my empirical studies seem to indicate that skidmarks are less likely in the submerged areas - though I don't have the quantitative data to back that up. ;-P

    Anyway, yes - I would prefer not to overthink this. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find showrooms that have models operably installed for comparison. And being truly thorough about it would probably involve eating a lot more than is healthy.

    Basically, I'm just trying not to shoot myself in the foot just to get a particular look. The location is a commercial one open to a small number of clients, so issues like clogging and skidmarks are higher on the list than they might be at home.
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,889
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Adding more water to one of these bowls will change nothing. It's like, can you put a gallon of milk in your cereal bowl?
    No...........but it will sure do a number on your dining room table.
  9. meeotch

    meeotch New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    New York
    @Terry - I should clarify: as I suspected in my original post, and you verified in yours, I understand that modifying the toilet is not an option. So don't worry about that.

    At this point, it's just about a toilet designed to clear two different flush volumes vs. a different toilet designed to clear just the one larger volume. It seems like there would necessarily be a difference there, no?
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,889
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Well.............if you can find a bowl that fits on that carrier that was designed for more water in the bowl, that would be true.
    Who makes them? The in-wall carrier has always been a dual flush. My mother had a bowl that held more water in her American Standard Cadet wall hung, made in 1962.
    Gerber makes a standard wall hung with tank that uses 1.28
    So are you trying to encourage some manufacturer to start producing 1.6 gallons bowls for the in-wall dual flush setup? And have people just push the large flush button? And is there a market for that, the kind of market where someone makes money from it?
    Just wondering.
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,485
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Two things relative to your original posting
    1. A.D.A. compliance depends on WHERE you mount the carrier, and has nothing to do with the toilet.
    2. You mention "height adjustments in the future" but to do that you have to reposition the carrier, which is seldom an easy task.
  12. meeotch

    meeotch New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    New York
    Yes, that was part of my original question: Is there such thing as a "modern-looking" wall hung single-flush toilet. I can't speak to the market size (though presumably the overall toilet market is large enough to allow for both single and dual flush floor mounted models). But it sounds like the answer is "no"?

    Geberit makes quite a few single-flush actuator buttons for their in-wall carriers: http://www.geberit.us/catalog/catalogs.php?TypeID=2&misc=Style And their catalog mentions a "single-flush option" for the wall tank itself, though I couldn't find a part number.

    But I'm unclear about the significance of that. From what you said above, it sounds like your only option is to pair it with a dual-flush bowl, and all you've accomplished is removing one of the buttons.
  13. meeotch

    meeotch New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    New York
    @hj - re ADA: the 17-19" seat height isn't an issue, as all the carriers seem to allow for it. However, my understanding is that there needs to be a grab-bar behind the toilet at 33-36" from finished floor. This puts it very close to where the actuator buttons are. iirc, a recent update to the ADA standards (I'm in NYC, so some of this might be local) also requires a 12" clearance above the bar. I believe the idea is you not only grab the bar, but you sort of wedge your whole arm in the nook where the bar & wall meet - so no protrusions allowed in that area. Also, the actuator buttons must require no more than 5lb of force. The various manufacturers have given me a bunch of different answers regarding this stuff (sometimes from the same company). But I won't hijack my own thread with convoluted ADA nonsense - I believe I have that all satisfactorily figured out.

    Re "height adjustments": the floor in the bathroom may eventually be raised. And yeah, I know it'll be a total pain in the ass. But it's just not in the cards to do it in the proper order. It has to do with a re-zoning of the neighborhood and change of use on the C of O, which again I'll leave alone, so as to not derail the discussion.
  14. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    New York, NY
    I don't know if this helps but...

    There is a very nice country club on Long Island that just built a new beach facility, which includes among other things a restaurant and bar. The architect and contractor did an absolutely, unbelieveably-incredible job, in that the thing, as built, fit the club and the location like a glove. They got every teensy detail of the place precisely spot-on, down to things like the lighting, the finishes, the colors, the fixtures...everything is just perfect for the location and the clientele. Incredible quality, but also understated and elegant.

    They installed Toto fixtures in the bathrooms. Sinks, urinals, faucets...and Aquia wall-hungs on Toto tanks. The Aquias have been extremely well-received and, despite regular use, they always look fine when I have been there, with no skid marks visible. Of course, YMMV, and, indeed, my anecdotal experience probably doesn't offer a large enough sample size to be statistically-valid. But it's something I was naturally curious about, and they seem to have passed with flying colors (and no noticeable colors on the bowls).
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