Traditional Look Dual-Flush 1.6 Gal??

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by dndell, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. dndell

    dndell New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Oakland
    Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me. I'm looking for a dual-flush 1.6G (preferably elongated, but not mandatory) toilet, with a more classic look. I'd hoped to find one by Toto, but don't like the looks of the Acquia very much - so many of the Toto toilets look like toys to me. I love the look of the old Kohler Portrait or the Toto Guinevere, to give examples of the style I like. I'm replacing an attractive low-boy Kohler that is the worst-flushing toilet I've ever owned.
    Suggestions, please. I'd consider American Standard - The H2Option Dual Flush Right Height EL Toilet looks are okay, but don't know much about it's flushing ability.

    Thanks much - I so appreciate Terry & this website.

    David
  2. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,894
    Location:
    New York, NY
    I'm sorry that this doesn't really answer your question, but I have a thought that may be helpful.

    Let me preface this that you are preaching to the choir when you talk about non-performing-but-beautiful-Kohler toilets. I had a lovely Portrait that was the worst-flushing toilet on the planet. And I have a nice-looking AS Galleria lowboy in the city that came close, until with the knowledge I was inspired to learn from this forum I got it working as best it can. Now it's merely bad.

    So, back to the topic. You want a dual-flush because you are environmentally-conscious, I would assume (or maybe you are just trying to save a little on your water bill.) Because a dual-flush averages the water used between 1.6 and .8, it is considered to be generally in the same water-saving arena as a full-time 1.28. Both are considered Watersense toilets, and both are eligible for rebates where such rebates are offered. For what my opinion is worth, you are likely to be as good to the environment by having a 1.28 gpf toilet as you are having a dual-flush.

    And the 1.28 comes with other advantages. Because the mechanisms for dual-flush are necessarily more complicated than the basic flapper flush used on all other Toto gravity toilets, you are looking at parts that are just plain more likely to break, and more likely to be more expensive and less-readily-available when they do. And the flush on most dual-flush toilets -- almost always a washdown flush -- is going to give you a different experience than a G-Max or a Double-Cyclone flush, the latter of which is really the best out there as far as bowl wash while still clearing the bowl. (I have the Double Cyclone in our Carlyle II.)

    So, my suggestion to you is that if you like the Toto Guinevere, get it. You won't be disappointed with its performance -- in fact you will likely love it -- and it's a Watersense-appproved 1.28gpf Double-Cyclone toilet that comes with Sanagloss and Universal Height standard. And it's good for the environment.

    I don't know the AS toilet personally. But I do know (and you must from reading the forum) that Terry has found the quality control at AS to be appalling. And if you look at the reviews by actual customers on the Consumer Reports web site, half of them have comments about how the toilet they got was unglazed in spots, wobbly, not formed correctly, etc. It confirmed that what Terry reports seeing in the field is what customers are experiencing with their products. I guess AS just assumes that the customers won't uninstall and return the toilet, so it sells it even if it is plainly defective. Sad.

    Hope that this maybe helps.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,124
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    WaterSense gives it's approval on bowls that average 1.28 gallons or less. If you are looking at traditional, it may make sense to go with a Watersense 1.28, that would be like a TOTO Guinevere.
    Also Promenade, Clayton, Dartmouth

    Caroma makes a traditional dual flush.
  4. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,894
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Just to add to Terry's point -- the traditional models he mentioned, other than the Guinevere, all come in either the G-Max (1.6gpf) and the E-Max (1.28gpf) versions. The version with S in the model number (like CST754SF for the Dartmouth), is the 1.6gpf version, and the version with E in the model number (like CST754EF for the Dartmouth) is the 1.28gpf version. (The "F" in the model number denotes Universal Height.)

    I mention this just to make sure that you end up with the proper one, if you go this route.

    One more thing, FWIW. The Toto dual-flush gives you the option of .8 or 1.6gpf. I had assumed that this was standard. But what have I learned about ass-u-ming? Right. Turns out the American Standard is 1.0gpf on the liquid, rather than 0.8. Just for what it's worth. Makes the decision to go with the full-time 1.28 a little easier, perhaps. Regardless, any of these toilets is comparatively good for the environment.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  5. dndell

    dndell New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Oakland
    I very much appreciate all the feedback. I want to be green where it makes sense, but function is most important for me (GF thinks I could be way greener). My main reason for wanting dual-flush is I'm older and in our household it's probably 10 to 1 #1s to #2s, so it's be way greener to have a real dual flush. On the 1.28 Gal models, a contractor I trust who I've worked with for a long time believes that those toilets are bad for the sewage system - that they don't pump enough water through to really clear it, even assuming the toilet works great. I can't know that's true, of course, but I'd really prefer the full 1.6 (legal limit in CA.) for #2. I checked out the Caroma models, but they're all a little too modern look for my taste.

    BTW, I owned a later model Portrait with dual flush (via the handle) that's worked pretty well. It was the San Raphael one-piece that's really sucked.

    I think what I'm really hearing is that the toilet I want doesn't exist, and I'll have to make compromises some way. I can live with that so long as I know I've done my due diligence looking for the first love toilet. Still appreciate any other suggestions or information. You guys rock!
  6. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,894
    Location:
    New York, NY
    FWIW, I get your friend's point, and we have all heard variations of that opinion, but consider this: once you move the debris around the closet bend and into the waste line, you don't need to have it accompanied by enough water to float it all the way to the city sewer in one fell swoop. There is going to be a lot of waste water finding its way into the waste line that will move it along, from showers and sinks in a bathroom to your dishwasher, washing machine, etc. And even a bunch of flushes with number 1 if the only thing on that section of the waste line is a toilet.

    As long as your sewer pipe doesn't clog, there's no real benefit to having it squeaky clean like it was just water-jetted every day. It's nice to face all the labels in the closet and refrigerator forward as well. Makes it look neat. But that neatness has very little marginal utility, although probably more than a "really clear" sewer line. 1.28gpf and even 1.0gpf is where the world is going, and there is no indication that people are having sewer line problems as a result. I wouldn't *avoid* the preponderance of the newer Toto models just because they are 1.28. Get the one that looks nicest to you, install with confidence, and happily flush your pee. After all, you're using less than a quart more per flush than you would with the 1.0/1.6 AS, or the 1.1/1.6 Glacier Bay.

    (And someday I'll tell you a really great Gilbert Gottlieb joke about some old men and what you were discussing.)

    Interesting that your Portrait worked. I -- and many others who were forced to use that dog -- fantasized about trapping the designer of that thing in a room and forcing him to listen to hour upon hour of accounts of unhappy experiences with his stupid toilet.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
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