Toto Drake: no glaze in trapway?

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by sidewinder, May 8, 2006.

  1. sidewinder

    sidewinder New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Hi,
    I have just bought a Toto Drake from a local plumbing supply and at this point before installing it am somewhat disappointed.
    I open the packaging to find the tank lid had many diviots and casting imperfections that are very easy to see including a long casting line that runs on top from one end of the tank lid to the other.

    Next the trapway has no glazing, in fact when you put your hand inside the trapway you can feel nothing but rough surface with a lot of sand particles caught up with the over spray on the outside glaze. I do not see how this helps the flow of material through the trapway.

    My old toilet has glazing throught out the trapway and on all surfaces of the toilet and tank and has few defects and does not flow well. I don't want another one and it looks like this one here would do just that or worse,plus the bad quality control on looks as well.

    My question: is this a bad luck defect? I know that many companies are trying to skimp on quality these days but it seems that this would reduce performance on the inside and the many defects on the outside make it look cheap but it is not @around $300 bucks including self closing lid.
    Joe

    Toto Drake Installation instructions
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2009
  2. sidewinder

    sidewinder New Member

    Messages:
    2
    I know it won't be perfect..

    But when I see dry pinkish base material with a light glaze overspray that includes what appears to be imbedded dirt that is a problem. When you stick your hand in the trap way, the roughness is such that you can feel sharp edges, lumps, and feels like 40 grit sand paper in many places. Would that not slow down material flow as stuff gets caught on all this? There is about 3 small spots of glaze in the entire trap way.

    As far as looks, I don't think it is very good, as it seems like they did not prep the tank casting very well. There is hardly any glaze on the corners, there is fish eye in the glazing. This appears like a bad Earl Schrive paint job on a car. Now in defence of the manufacture I have seen a Toto before and it looked much better than this one and one of the reasons I decided to buy one. That is why I was so disappointed to see the workmanship and quaility control on this one.

    Anyway I am going to take it back today and see if this was a fluke and not the "normal, lets take short cuts and save a penny" thing.
  3. v_phillips

    v_phillips New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Toilet bowls are first molded in two halves. After that, the internal surfaces of the trapway are smoothed and perfected. Then the two unfired clay halves are fused together and the seams and outer surfaces of the fully formed bowl are smoothed off before the piece goes into the kiln.

    All that is done by hand. If the guys at the factory are hurried or careless, then it is not done as thoroughly or carefully as it should be. And if not, you can get stuck with a toilet having imperfections such as a rough or lumpy trapway. Solid matter won't slide though it as readily as through a smooth, perfect one.

    It looks like they weren't very careful making your toilet in other ways also. Maybe they were short-handed that day down at the Toto factory.
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,997
    Location:
    New England
    Toto has factories all around the world (including the US). Out of curiosity, where was that one made?
  5. dkrab

    dkrab New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Hate to resurrect an old thread, but I have to agree with the original poster about the trapway. I just bought and installed a Drake, and it flushes fine. BUT, they advertise a "fully glazed trapway" and deliver a rough trapway. It is absolutely false advertising. I removed a Peerless elongated that came with the house (built in 2000) and it had what I would call a "fully glazed trapway", with glossy glaze all the way through. Kohler has it fully glazed. American Standard does, too (although I went through 2 Champions and found significant other defects before I gave up and bought the Toto).

    The trapway is NOT fully glazed. I checked several at a local store that sells Toto and had an extensive display, and found that none had full glazing. Some had the glaze extend farther down the hole than others, but in all I could reach the end of the glaze with my fingers.

    I am not pleased. But I feel like there is not a viable alternative out there right now. Kohler Cimarron doesn't clean the bowl well enough. American Standard Champion 4 has major quality problems (warped tank, poor glaze quality under the rim, patch in trap that looks like caulk applied after glazing). Gerber with the Sloan pressure assist is too noisy for the wife. And Toto shortcuts the glaze. Can't anybody do this right?
  6. SteveW

    SteveW DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    The only thing that matters about a toilet's trapway is how well it flushes - not how it looks or how it feels.

    Terry is just providing a FREE service by hosting this web site. I have absolutely no reason to question his comments about never yet seeing a badly-flushing Toto. He's not a Toto sales rep! Yes, he does sell Totos (and many other brands), but only to folks in the Seattle area - so not like he is making money hands over fist by promoting Toto toilets!

    I too say very positive things about the brand - simply because I have one, and am very impressed by the design and quality of the unit, compared to the others I've installed and/or used over the years. Just trying to help others make a good choice about a household "appliance" that, if you select properly, should be a once in a house's lifetime purchase; if you choose a bad one, you'll kick yourself every time you use it, or when you pay to have it replaced!
  7. dkrab

    dkrab New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Maybe it doesn't need to be fully glazed, I don't know. All I know is that I am spending money on something that is difficult to exchange if it goes bad a few years down the road, and I want to align as many variables in my favor as I can. And trapway glazing is one of those variables. Smoother would seem better, logically.

    I have checked several Am. Std. units in a couple of different "big box" stores and found the ALL fully glazed. I checked a few Kohlers, and found them all fully glazed. I checked the cheap Peerless toilet I removed a couple of weeks ago and IT was fully glazed. I checked almost one dozen Toto's (we have a store in Houston that has an elaborate display of Toto's) and found NONE fully glazed.

    From this I can deduce that Toto doesn't think a glossy glaze is necessary. I have to take it on faith that they are right. This, in spite of the fact that it is obviously a cost-cutting measure, in spite of the fact that it goes against logic, and in spite of the fact that ALL the other toilets I have inspected are fully glazed. Why can't Toto just fully glaze the trap and remove the question altogether? Sure, no toilet is perfect, but they'd be darn near perfect if they'd just address this one detail. How hard can it be? I am already holding my nose about buying a toilet made in Veitnam, can't they make it just a bit easier to justify by upping the quality a smidge?
  8. loke

    loke New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Location:
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Perhaps those of you concerned with Toto's glazing, or apparent lack thereof, might want to contact Toto directly to ask about it, through their website. (Address I used from there is: custservice@totousa.com)
    I have emailed several questions and have had prompt and courteous replies.
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,001
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I had a customer drop by to look at the TOTO Aquia yesterday, the Aquia uses the Plastic trapway.
    Update, he came back on Saturday and bought the Carlyle that uses the plastic trapway. Sanagloss in the bowl, and the skirted bowl.
    He was very proud of the porcelain production in his home country of Vietnam. He said the clay there was of good quality and that tile and other porcelain pieces are manufactured for export around the world.
    I have also heard that the clay in Georgia is also very good.
    Last edited: May 31, 2008
  10. bathlady

    bathlady New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Maryland
    Not a fully glazed trapway here either

    I just picked up my Toto Drake, and the trapway is rough, not glazed - just like the original poster described. On the bottom is stamped "Made in China".

    Is it possible that the China made ones are not fully glazed, while those made elsewhere ARE fully glazed??

    Has anyone bought one that is actually fully glazed and feels smooth when you reach underneath it into the trapway (before it's installed)?? If so, then where was yours made?

    I also just checked the Toto website spec sheets for the Drake and the Ultramax. It's interesting that the Drake spec sheet says only "glazed trapway" while the Ultramax spec sheet says "100% glazed trapway".

    What's going on here?

    BTW, did anyone ever get any answers from Toto that explains it to their satisfaction?

    Original poster: Does your toilet say Made in China? Did you ever install the non-fully glazed trapway toilet and how has it been working for you?

    Some other things I noticed is:
    - There is also no glazing under the bowl rim (around the holes where the water comes out).
    - The glazing on the back side of the tank is minimalist (not that it's really required there, but possibly more evidence of them cheaping out)
    - The trapway has obstructions molded into it, in addition to the non-glazing
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2008
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,001
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Glazing on trapway run from totally visible with heavy glaze, to single coat clear glaze which is barely visible.

    Performance seems to be the same between the bowls.

    That's based on selling a few thousand bowls every year.
    You can worry about it, but I'm not.
    It's all good.
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,001
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Ian,
    Nobody returns Toto toilets.
    I sell thousands a year, and nobody returns them.
    What part of almost 0% returns do you not get?

    They do return Cadet 3 toilets though.
    And Champion 4
    and Koher Cimarron
    And Gerber Ultraflush
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  13. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    When I had 2 of those patches in the trap leak in one week on the original Chumpian... That was the end of Am. Std. for me! I looked at it before installing it and said It can't leak! They would have rejected it!:mad:

    Still holding on "0" Defects and "0" Callbacks on Toto Toilets.:cool:
  14. bathlady

    bathlady New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Maryland
    All I know is that I bought two Drakes in late 2003 for another house we were in, and they were glazed smooth in the trapway and under the bowl rim and on the back of the tank, and overall the quality seemed better than this one. Perhaps they work the same, I do not know. I would have to test them side by side (as it were), perhaps under the same test conditions as they did for the MaP testing. The MaP testing, by the way, was done only on the Drake elongated (900 grams), not the Drake round front. Not sure if the trapway is any different between the two versions or not. They also don't specify whether the trapway is smooth or rough on the test units, nor do they specify date and place of manufacture of the test units. I'm an engineer; inquiring minds want to know, though likely it will never be rigorously tested.
  15. Peanut9199

    Peanut9199 Customer Service Manager Plumbing Wholesale

    Messages:
    875
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I have a Drake in our showroom from 2002 and it does not come with a "Fully" glazed trapway and neither does the regular rim.
    I sell on average 1500 a year and i have had one call back from a bowl not flushing.
    It was brand new and the guy snaked it and used a garden hose and flushed it out and it would flush properly.
    I took it back smashed it open and then called him and asked if he was missing a roll of teflon tape as i found one in the trapway.

    That is the only call back i have ever got on a Drake.
  16. JeffU

    JeffU New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    This thread is hilarious! How many of you stick their hand in a toilet trap to check out the glazing?

    All that matters is how the toilet performs. Or does it flush everything without clogging etc ? No matter how much you spend on a toilet it is still a friggin TOILET !

    The Toto Eco Drake I installed in July is great. It works with no issues and uses a minimal amount of water.

    Now if the bowl was not made in "China" vs. the tank made in USA I would be totally satisfied.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2008
  17. xrhonda91

    xrhonda91 New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    I just bought a Toto Drake round bowl a few weeks back for a major
    bath rennovation---so far, so good. A quick, quiet, powerful flush...

    I did quite a bit of research on toilets before the purchase and
    some other manufacturers of less effective toilets boast of their
    "fully glazed trapways", so that was one of the first things I checked
    on the new Toto as I unboxed it. Was a little disappointed with the
    "roughness" of it as others mentioned, but have had no trouble thus far...

    I ran across this site while researching and until then, had never heard
    of Toto. Was impressed by Mr. Loves' experiences with them and the
    five or so pages of testimonials to their "plunger free" operation. Found
    a local supplier here in Indy who stocked them and now have a Toto "throne"... And the plunger has been moved to the garage...

    Also, I did notice some minor casting imperfections, but was sure
    impressed on ease of installation, no leaks, and factory set tank water
    level was right on the mark... John
  18. Probedude

    Probedude New Member

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    CA
    I received my Toto Eco Drake today.
    The trapway is fully glazed, but not with the white glaze the covers the visible exterior parts of the bowl and tank, and the porcelain has not been sanded so it feels rough. I think this is where the confusion is - it's rough but it is glazed.

    Just like the the inside of the tank - it's glazed but not smooth.

    I seem to remember my parents when they did ceramics - the objects were fired at low temp, then sanded smooth and glazed. Toto is only sanded on the visible surfaces and the final thick/white glaze too is only applied on the visible surfaces. (just inside the throat on the bowl mine transitions from smooth white to rough porcelain.)

    No complaints here, just filling in what I see.

    Dave
    (FWIW - bowl made made in Vietnam, tank in USA).
  19. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    Ontario
    FWIW, I just bought and installed a Drake in Ontario. It was made in China and the trapway looked unglazed to me.
  20. Probedude

    Probedude New Member

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    CA
    Because of the color, the roughness or ??

    I had to use a flashlight on mine - only then did I see that it was glossy'ish.
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