Toilet wax ring failing already?

[Giantsean]

Hi All,

I am trying to lock down an issue I'm seeing w/ two toilets. The first was most recently installed about two months ago and has not been problematic until recently.

I first noticed the condition a couple of weeks back - the grout lines at 6 and 3 (looking from the front) had darkened. I first assumed that my 10 year old son just had bad aim and a tissue threaded under the base (it's not caulked) came back wet dark and pee-flavored. Problem solved, so I thought. I dried it out and cleaned what I could and called it a day.

Flash forward however it does not seem to be getting dryer. I left a tissue under there today and it wicked up a bunch more juice. I figured it was new wax ring time but then also wondered why the water wasn't a little more diluted than it was.

To add to the fun, I also noticed a similar line at the six of our 2nd toilet (this has been working for more than half a year now. My son also uses this one fairly often and fishing more tissue yielded the exact same results. Its also worth noting that we have been living back in the house full time for only about a month - before that it was mostly me using the toilets, and I have fabulous aim . So it seems likelier that it's his aim that is the problem but if so, what's the half life of pee under a toilet? Wouldn't it eventually dry up? Also wouldn't there be some other indications of spash besides the grout lines?

I guess the easiest way to confirm is just ban him from this toilet for a few weeks and see what happens. Can't think of any other way to confirm bad ring or crack w/o pulling up the whole toilet, or maybe a dye test - but I don't know if that will permanently color the grout.

Thx for any advice!

 

[Reach4]

Roll a piece of paper towel into a rope shape. Use packing tape to cover and hold to the seam.

Put some paper towel over the packing tape. Which gets wetter?

Normally you apply water based caulk around the toilet between 1 o'clock, around the front clockwise to about 11 o'clock after setting the toilet.

Sitting down in residences is better than standing if you want to avoid contaminating the residence.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

pee-flavored?

He may need to start sitting down.
If a wax ring is leaking, the water released is very diluted. I been on a few calls where we found that the users were indeed bad aims. One customer left the light off to save electricity. My solution was to make him turn on the lights first.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Here's a good test that I tell my clients to do:

Take pure bleach (wear dishwashing gloves), and sponge it all over the toilet, walls, and floor. Even under the toilet, the back of it, clean it all.

Drench it. Let the bleach make contact with every nook and cranny.

Yup, give it a good hospital-grade disinfecting cleaning.

Sponge it again two times with just a rinsed wet sponge, to remove as much bleach as you can. Don't get all OCD to remove it all, it will break down in the air in a day or so.

Wait 1 day, at least, the end of the day if you did this in the morning.

Put your head down there at the base of the toilet, and see if you can smell any sewage.

The purpose of the bleach cleaning is to let you detect it with a contrast of smell.

 

[Jadnashua]

Wax by itself, does not fail. It is not a spring, so if the toilet can move at all, you will compress the wax on the downside, and leave a gap when it rocks back. The solution to that is a new wax ring and proper shimming to ensure that the toilet sits perfectly level. Wax seals have been found in ancient archeology digs thousands of years old, and things were still perfectly intact.

It's possible, but hard, to 'blow out' the wax seal if you use a plunger very aggressively. That usually only happens if you used a stacked set of rings, and then, not all that often.

It would be unusual to melt a wax ring (soften doesn't do it) but that would take a heat source very close, and you'd probably find it too hot to actually sit on the toilet.

You really do want to add some caulk, especially if those toilets are on tile...porcelain on tile does not make things really stable - knocking the toilet can move it and break the seal (or the toilet)...the caulk can really help stabilize things.

 

[WJcandee]

The wax ring isn't there to make a watertight seal. It's there to make an airtight seal. The toilet empties into the center of the flange and the water should go down the drain. Maybe a little splash here or there, but that's it. If stuff is flowing out, it's a backed-up drain, not a faulty wax seal. In theory, you should be able to flush over and over without any seal whatsoever there, and get only a little moisture deposited on the floor. The seal is there to stop sewer gas from entering your room as its primary mission. That's why it normally lasts so long.

I'm with Terry as to the likely source, particularly if it smells like fully-concentrated pee, not pee diluted in gallons of water.

 

[Giantsean]

Thanks for all the replies... great info. I'd be ready to sign off on the bad aim theory had I not threaded a new tissue under there and left it for a few hours, to find that it wicked out a couple inches. If it's simply bad aim, how long is it gonna stay wet up in there? It has been a week since I first noticed the problem.

It is definitely NOT flowing out (there is no visible water or even smell for that matter, just the dark grout lines)

 

[Standardairconditioner]

If it's simply bad aim, how long is it gonna stay wet up in there?

Any toilet sitting on glazed procelain tiles, grouted with epoxy, and caulked with Mapei Keracaulk Bio-Block, and you can leave puddles.

No pee will stick to this, and a weekly wipe with bleach will make it look like the day it was installed.

I love teeth white tiles and white grout/caulk. Helps me see when things need a wipe.

 

[Giantsean]

Any toilet sitting on glazed procelain tiles, grouted with epoxy, and caulked with Mapei Keracaulk Bio-Block, and you can leave puddles.

No pee will stick to this, and a weekly wipe with bleach will make it look like the day it was installed.

I love teeth white tiles and white grout/caulk. Helps me see when things need a wipe.

It is porcelain, was mixed with Grout Once, but not caulked (yet). Does that mean a puddle can remain for perpetuity? It's been a bit humid but you figure it's gotta dry up sometime

For giggles I decided to stick my nose into the recessed light hole in the soffit below this toilet (the only access I have to it from below. No bad smells detected (other than a noseful of gypsum dust lol) so I take that as a positive sign. I just wish it would stop wicking up. Maybe it's hairdryer time.

 

[Reach4]

If you want to accelerate getting liquid out, try sucking with the crevice tool on a wet-dry vacuum cleaner. Perhaps you could add some cleaner etc, and flow that under. Then suck that out.

If you really want it clean under there, consider lifting the toilet. That will require a new seal when you put it back. To put a toilet back, you should have shims. I would use a level, but that is probably overkill. Most just shim the back part and let the front part contact the floor. Lacking practice setting toilets with wax, one of the waxless seals may be better for the novice. Once you compress wax, you don't want to lift to add a shim. If you could place the shims first, that would not be a problem.

If you had a Unifit or Aquia toilet, that would not a problem; you can lift and replace the toilet without affecting the toilet flange seal. It is the adapter that has the seal for those.

 

[Giantsean]

Thanks and no worries... I have done a bunch of toilets, just never had one (or two) possibly leaking. It's worth noting though that this is all new construction and I am very likely noticing things that I would never consciously observe in a lived-in dwelling.

Thinking back, the only things that were a little different about this toilet were that first, it was cold when I did it so I gave the ring a bit of a warm water bath to soften it up first - never tried that before and not sure if it somehow messed it up. Second, I didn't have to lift off but I did have to pull up a bit to get the bolts to line up right... it just wasn't happening well. Finally, this ring has a horn and I had placed the ring on the toilet first (vs the flange) as I usually do. I have never had a problem w/ this type but I hear some prefer rings without the rubber as they can bottom out. The flange is sitting on the tile so it's possible I guess. Then again I may be overanalyzing and looking for demons where there are none

If I do indeed lift it, is shimming necessary if the surface is already relatively level? The toilet does not rock in the least... it's a new floor and new flange and it socked right down w/o incident.

 

[CountryBumkin]

If you end up replacing the wax, try one of the waxless rings (i.e. like the Sani-Seal).
They are more forgiving if you don't set the toilet exactly right on the first try and you need to lift-shift a little. I used the Sani-Seal twice now and I really like the product.

 

[Reach4]

If I do indeed lift it, is shimming necessary if the surface is already relatively level? The toilet does not rock in the least... it's a new floor and new flange and it socked right down w/o incident.

I am not a pro, but I would think some shimming is good-- even if you just gently shove some shims in to fill a gap or two at the rear. I would think that there could be extra force applied at some time that could cause a bit of a shift that could be prevented with shims.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....leveling-what-do-you-think.49119/#post-360852

The use of the level, may be overdoing it, but I did it on mine. Floor was not new, and I was not in a hurry.

 

[Jadnashua]

A wax ring with a horn could easily be the source of any leaking! Lifting up on the toilet means a gap in the wax seal...while the stuff is sticky, it is not like a spring, it can leave a gap. Dry set the toilet, determine where and if you need shims, place them, then set the toilet back down with the wax. Place the wax on the flange, not on the toilet. Use a second set of nuts and washers on the bolts to hold them upright and in place. It must sit level. Especially on a tiled floor, to get the toilet secure from movement, you really do need to caulk things - trying to compress the porcelain can lead to breaking the toilet. Some toilets are not flat across the bottom, and won't sit flat without rocking, then, not all tile or floor coverings are perfectly flat, so shims are often required. You don't have to go buy them, you can use coins...different denominations, different thicknesses, and probably cheaper than going out to buy some dedicated ones.

The issue with the plastic horn is two-fold: on some flange designs, there isn't enough room, and forcing the horn into the flange can cause it to distort. Second, if the flange is a bit high, and the clearance under the toilet is a bit low, you can squish all of the wax out, leaving the plastic to try to make the seal. Those things are often more trouble than they're worth. They can help if you need a jumbo or double wax rings, but otherwise, just use a plain wax ring - it's cheaper, and works more reliably.

 

[Giantsean]

So for the Wednesday update... I laid a few more test tissues down (both toilets) and got some different results. The older toilet came up wetter than usual and the new one (usually more wet) was less so. So in frustration I cut up some thin strips of legal office paper and was able to get them all the way into the area behind the stains (toward the wall) between the front edge and the flange. The area in front of and around the flange appears to be dry as a bone (I was temporarily disheartened at a small stain which turned out to be a glob of wax). The area toward the front still had some wetness but it was super-concentrated, and clearly a yellow color (made even more evident by the white office paper). Unless this is the sneakiest leak ever, I'm thinking we have a winner.

If it turns out to be the case, some shimming and caulking will be in order, and knock on wood I can put this horrible chapter in toilet history to rest

Thx again for all the advice!

 

[Reach4]

If it turns out to be the case, some shimming and caulking will be in order, and knock on wood I can put this horrible chapter in toilet history to rest

You might consider http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1422868
As far as I can tell, that is what Polyseamseal turned into.

You can click "check availability" to see what Ace stores have it in stock.

 

[Giantsean]

Nice. If it's Loctite I'm sure either Box Orange or Box Blue will have it. Also have an Ace in town so I'll look out of it. Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

Nice. If it's Loctite I'm sure either Box Orange or Box Blue will have it. Also have an Ace in town so I'll look out of it. Thanks again!

I understand there is a DAP product that is good for that also.

 

[Giantsean]

Just a final update for anyone stumbling onto this thread looking for info on the same issue. The office paper worked out great in that I was able to fashion some probes to slip under the base and route around. The area ahead of the flange came up consistently dry, whereas the area toward the front still has some very dark and concentrated remnants of moisture (think that maple syrup smell familiar to anyone who has ever rode the NY subway ) I think what was happening is that the pee got in and puddled in a spot that trapped it in (can't slip paper through, only from behind) and putting paper up against it from the front slowly wicked it out. I guess it is cold and damp enough under there that drying time is significantly delayed, and it just had nowhere to escape.

The only other thing I found were random drips/spots of water, which I imagine are due to condensation etc. I'm thinking it's probably impossible to find a toilet that is totally dry underneath.

The grout lines are noticably drier but still darker which probably helped throw me off too. I guess my last question is for any recommendations to get grout back to fighting colors!

Thx again!!!

 

[Reach4]

You could try wetting the grout with water and a little low-suds detergent. Brush a bit, wait, and suck up the water with the wet-dry vacuum cleaner... or a sponge if you don't have that wet-dry vacuum cleaner yet. Repeat a few times. If you use a sponge, your detergent does not have to be low-suds.